Christmas on December 25th is not from Paganism!

dec 25If you frequent social media, then you’ve probably been inundated with smarty pants pseudo scholars calling Christmas a “pagan holiday.” These under-informed accusers believe they have the goods with bold claims like Christmas trees are forbidden in Jeremiah 10 (a passage about the manufacture of Canaanite idols) and that the date of December 25th was adopted from the pagan holiday of Saturnalia (actually December 17th).

The best way to respond to these claims is to ask them what evidence they have (from source documents). Most of the time this question will cause them to change the subject or elicit the chirping of crickets.  The truth is most of the claims are dubious and have no actual evidence.  Even if there were other holidays on the same date, it does not mean that they were even aware of each other. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. The leaps in logic are prohibitive and there is no source claiming the Christians appropriated pagan days until the 12th century!

In the real world. reputable ancient source documents lay waste to the popular pagan origins theory concerning December 25. Biblical Archaeology Review is a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars. The article How December 25 Became Christmas provides ample evidence debunking the pagan origins myth, showing how it actually began, and even demonstrating how 12-5 was decided to be the date of Jesus’s birth. This dates back to the second century ( I challenge pagan theorists to antedate it).

Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar. March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception. Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.[1]

Of course, I am a nerd with Logos Bible Software and a searchable database of ancient documents including Tertullian. I verified the claim from the original source documents, Tertullian wrote:

And the suffering of this “extermination” was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Cæsar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April (March 25)[2]

The belief was that he died on the same day he was conceived. They believed the conception was on March 25 which became the Feast of the Annunciation, commemorating the angel’s appearance to Mary:  “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth” (Luke 1:26) This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes from fourth-century North Africa:

“Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.” [3]

The rationale was innocent enough, just add nine months to date of conception to determine when He was born and it lands on December 25th.  It’s that simple. Paganism had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

Note:  Due to so may folks missing the point, I do not think Jesus was born on Dec 25th; the point of this post is that the early church did not chose the date based on a pagan holiday but rather when they assumed he was conceived (mistaken or not).

 

[1]Andrew McGowan, “How  December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014  http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/#location1

[2] Tertullian, “An Answer to the Jews,” in Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. S. Thelwall, vol. 3, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 160.

[3] De solstitia et aequinoctia conceptionis et nativitatis domini nostri iesu christi et iohannis baptista  as cited by Andrew McGowan, “How  December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014  http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/#note11 

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. Sandi says:

    Well this puts a new swing on things, at least for me as I have never heard of a date being put on Yeshuah’s conception before. You learn something new every day (hopefully).

    • Tim Cummings says:

      This line of reason should be considered, but I am more persuaded that you have to tie Jesus’ birth with John the Baptist. Zacharias went into the temple after the order of Abuja. That would of been a specific time and if Zacharias and Elizabeth would of come together right after his service in the temple, with the promise of Gabriel, it would of been around June. 9 month later would be around Passover. 6 Month from that would of been the Feast of Tabernacles. It has been believed that Jesus was born sometimes in the Fall. Jesus was born in a manger or should I say a Sukkah, hence a Tabernacle. He was the Word made flesh and Tabernacled with man. God the Father laid out 7 Feast and Jesus fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Feast. My bet is that He was born on a Feast day, since every other major events happens on Feast Days. I believe so was His birth. He left His heavenly abode and from the start literally began to Tabernacled with man. Circumcised on the 8th day, which was a Holy convocation. If this can be proven false, then perhaps, but Tabernacles makes more prophetic sense. Where is the prophetic proof that He was born on Passover??? Anyways, Blessings

      • Tim Cummings says:

        I’m sorry, I meant, Where is the prophetic proof that He was conceived not born on Passover?

      • Faye Rod says:

        Would someone give me Scriptures to show us that Christmas has anything to do with Jesus or was practiced by early church. It is just a man made tradition that causes hardship to many and feeds the money go round of business. It especially irks me to see churches trot out santa in December. I am not HRM at all in fact totally against the movement but Christmas is just a big furfie not even based on Jesus date of birth. Ever wonder why some things are not recorded in The Scripture? Just so someone cant make an idol out of it!

      • jmvpho says:

        Zechariah served two courses a year plus all three feast days. So pinning him down to one course for your calculations is shortsighted.

        As well, since “all men are to appear before Me three times a year” in Jerusalem and specifically in the Fall when they are commanded “to dwell in booths”, not inns, not caves, not stables, and not in Bethlehem, it stands to reason that we can eliminate the Fall Feasts. Yeshua has not fulfilled the Fall Feasts yet.

        • Mark says:

          So jmvpho do you have any answers or do you just have questions? What is your estimate? The only set dates there are regarding Jesus birth are from the dates set forth in the Course of duties for Zachariah.

          Read with understanding and know these dates are locked in. You will find why I choose the
          second ministration , 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

          “THE COURSE OF ABIA” (Luke 1:5).

          This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration in the Temple (1 Chronicles 24:10), and occurred, as did the others, twice in the year.

          The “Courses” were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Appendix 51. 5). This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the “Great Day of the Feast” (John 7:37), and was a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39).

          The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia or Abijah (1 Chronicles 24:10).

          Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the three Great Feasts, the dates for the two yearly “ministrations” of Abiah will be seen to fall as follows:

          The first 9 ministration was from 12-18 Chisleu = December 6-12.

          The second ministration was from 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

          The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conception of John the Baptist took place between 12-18 SIVAN (June 13-19), in the year 5 B.C. After finishing his “ministration”, the aged priest “departed to his own house” (Luke 1:23), which was in a city10 in “the hill country” of Juda (verse 39).

          The day following the end of the “Course of Abia” being a Sabbath (Sivan 19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.

          The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a couple of days at least. He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21st or 22nd. This leaves ample time for the miraculous “conception” of Elizabeth to take place on or about 23rd of SIVAN 11 – which would correspond to June 23-24 of that year. The fact of the conception and its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards, and hence the 23rd SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conception of John Baptist as the 1st TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.

          But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliterated the real dates of our Lord’s “Begetting” and Birth, were also at work with regard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results. As soon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its proper date, videlicet: the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from the Pagan Calendars substituted for it (videlicet: December 25), then everything else had to be altered too.

          Hence “Lady Day” in association with March 25 (new style) became necessarily connected with the Annunciation. And June 24 made its appearance, as it still is in our Calendar, as the date of “the Nativity of John the Baptist”, instead of, as it really is, the date of his miraculous conception.

          The Four “Quarter Days” may therefore be set forth thus: first in the chronological order of the events with which they are associated, videlicet:

          The conception of John Baptist on or about 23rd SIVAN = June 24 in the year 5 B.C.
          The Gennesis (Begetting) of our Lord on or about 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
          The birth of John Baptist on or about 4th-7th NISAN = March 25-28 in the year 4 B.C.
          The birth of our Lord on or about 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

          or, placing the two sets together naturally:-

          {The conception of John 23rd SIVAN = June 23-24 in the year 5 B.C.
          {The birth of John 7th NISAN = March 28-29 in the year 4 B.C.
          {The Miraculous “Begetting” 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
          {The NATIVITY 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

    • Mark says:

      To know the accurate date of Jesus birth you have to study the different courses the Levitical priests at that time
      Here are my calculations
      The Lineage and birth-date of Jesus
      Jesus lineage comes thru Mary not Joseph as Joseph was not the father of Jesus. He was just an in-law or (as was supposed) Elisabeth and Mary were cousins and their mothers were sisters who were of the daughters of Aaron a Levite. Luke 1-5. Mary’s genealogy is in Luke 3 and her name is not mentioned because Jewish tradition did not mention the woman in genealogy, so Joseph, as was supposed, meaning: (in-law) is put in place of Mary. Mary’s Father Heli or Eli was a Jew so Jesus was half Jew and half Levite, the King line and the Priest line and God All in One Jesus Christ.
      The Genealogy in Matthew is of Joseph the “legal” Father of Jesus The genealogy in Luke is of Mary the “biological” mother of Jesus. Thus the question as to why the Genealogy’s listed in the two Gospels are different.
      Zacharias the father of John the Baptist and Elisabeth’s husband was a Levitical priest on the Course of Abia. 2 times a year. Dec. 6-13 and June 13-19. At his return from his Levitical duties on around June 22 to 25 John the Baptist was conceived. Six months later Elisabeth met with Mary in Nazareth the night after Jesus was conceived around Dec. 25th.
      Luke 1:
      4 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
      25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.
      26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
      27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
      And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
      36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
      37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
      Twice it is said that six months passed by after the conception of John the Babtist on June 22-25 which 6 months later is Dec. 25th the day Jesus was conceived. Nine months later he was born on Sept 29.This is not rocket science, just read it with understanding. December 25th is the day our LORD became flesh and Sept 29 was the day HE was born. September 29 should be celebrated just as December 25.
      Gabriel announced that Mary and Elisabeth were cousins and that Elisabeth would conceive John and that Mary would conceive Jesus.
      Mark Vaughn 12-23-13

      • Darlene says:

        I agree with you, Christ was concieved on Dec. 25th, (representing the spark of abundant life/Light of the world)and born in September, (G-d with us) on the Feast of Tabernacles… All the Feasts represent the processes of a Hebraic wedding, He is preparing the home and the Briide awaits His arrival.

    • Christine says:

      Sandi; That’s because you’re evidently not Orthodox or Catholic.
      The Feast of the Annunciation is still celebrated

    • Sandie says:

      If this is true, again we see birth begins at conception so therefore we celebrate the resurrection and the conception at the same time praise the Lord!! Most children are cared 40 weeks that would put it in January. The birth is not mentioned in the Bible on purpose!

  2. km says:

    The KING never admonished HIS followers to celebrate his conception, and that’s all I go by!! Communion is remembering HIM!

    • Mark says:

      I don’t need traditions of men to tell me that when Elisabeth met with Mary, John leaped in the womb of Elisabeth at the presence of the Holly Spirit.
      That is what I call Celebration ! God is God He can inhabit a single cell or for that matter anything He chooses to inhabit. He is ubiquitous, it is absolutely silly to argue that God had to wait 9 months or any amount of time before He was able to dwell with man in the flesh. All I know is that I make hay while the sun shines and I choose to celebrate my Lord everyday.

      • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

        Amen, Mark. And, thanks for your comment to me. You’re absolutely correct. His Truth will ALWAYS reign.

        Amen and Amen. (I’m putting my comment to you here, ’cause I can’t find it on this site, but it’s on my email.)

        As Peter must’ve said in his professional workaday life, “Let’s move on, guys…! There MUST be ‘bigger fish to fry”.

        *Again, just my fun attempt at decidedly ‘human humor’, from a gal who LOVES laughter and loves Jesus and His Truth, even more.

        Keep smilin’ Mark.
        Jesus will straighten this whole thing out.I have no doubt about that, whatsoever.

        Cynthia Lauren

  3. joseph says:

    wow. that doesnt fit a single Holy Convocation. need to stop following made up holidays and study HIS feasts…. the only ones based on scripture

    • JAM says:

      agreed

    • ed says:

      Yes. Why follow made up Holy days, when god has outlined
      a set of Holy days for us. Does man think that he (man) can do better .

    • Brain says:

      Joseph, I agree with you. So I just want to add some thought. If Yeshua is the Word and all the scripture is the Word of God, then Yeshua is the totality of the scriptures. So, living out the torah (the Word) in faith of Messiah one would be a living, breathing, action oriented, obedient servant of the God of Abraham with the faith in Messiah. To the point now – YHWH has already provided His people with the feasts that we are to celebrate in obedience to Him. In the beginning was the Word, was with God and is God. Hmmmmm…..I don’t know what a sun god celebration has to do with obedience to our Creator. Obedience to YHWH is doing what He says to do, or not do. Our opinion doesn’t matter.

    • Jack J says:

      Another thought is to read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 and just see what feasts and festivals Yeshua will have us celebrating and which are not even mentioned. Passover and Tabernacles are mentioned with Sabbath (evening on day 7) and new moons; however, Christmas is not mentioned for that future kingdom. Why?

  4. Eldon says:

    Who put it into man’s head, to decorate a tree?
    was it God? if so, where are your two or three witnesses to that effect..

    or was it the usual suspects?

  5. In your article “Christmas on December 25th is not from Paganism!” you state: “The best way to respond to these claims is to ask them what evidence they have from source documents.”. Very good comment. So let me ask you the same question: “what evidence they have from source documents” to prove that Christmas in not pagan but is, in fact, a Christian holiday. I can hardly wait for your response.

    Thank you
    Steve

    • jmvpho says:

      Augustine, Theophilus, Hippolytus, Diocletion, Justin Martyr, all site the date of December 25th both from a historical record and from the census records that were in existence during their time. I don’t know why this evidence is ignored. It should be the most compelling!

      • Karen says:

        You really will have to go back a little further than that, since all you have shown is that these “church fathers” agreed with each other.The Antichrist spirit was already working in NT days, as Christ warned us, the Antichrist would change the times and the seasons, and indeed your evidence proves that he was already at work. Show something from the bible or from another reliable historical document. The fact is, there is a huge amount of historical documentation of sun god worship and sun god’s being born on Dec 25th (or on the winter solstice) This goes all the way back to the first civilizations. There are numerous artifacts and carvings of these ancient cults worshiping decorated trees. The origins of Santa and Elves is also easily documented as well as the wreaths, the mistletoe, holly, yule logs. All of these things can easily be shown to have their origins in pagan worship.I have known most of my life that the Catholic church decided to incorporate pagan holidays as a way to make more converts. Their plan of compromise is no secret and has never been denied. Churches do it today, thinking that anything is acceptable, as long as it gets the attendance up. When you say that no evidence can be produced, nothing could be further from the truth. The evidence given in the bible, does show a very good case for Christ’s birth being in the fall and no need to schedule a birthday celebration, their was already a party on God’s calendar, The feast of Tabernacles, when God commands His kids to rejoice for 8 days!

    • Lori says:

      My first thought as well! Actually , I see far more evidence in scripture that we are not to celebrate such things than I do that its ok with God that we do make up our own Holy Days and paste a Jesus sticker on it ! Actually , He is pretty clear to me that when He calls doing such things an abomination in His sight , that if I love Him I wouldn’t wish to do so. He gave us days to celebrate and we would do better to understAnd those feast days and learn to celebrate those ( esp since He told us to celebrate some of those 4- EVER ) I have actually , listened to some of Putnams work but when you play with truth – you lose my ear and my readership! Yeshua said , IF you love me , keep my commandments, and to “follow Him” ( do we really think He celebrated Christmas?? The Father has told us not to add or take away one word from scripture.

  6. Michael Riddle says:

    The shepherds were in the pasture tending the flocks. They don’t have their animals out to pasture in late December. Its to cold. Our Lord was born in September. Please look into it.

    • D Grant says:

      Right now in Jerusalem, it’s 68 degrees. The average for Dec 21 is 56/42. That’s warmer than where I am.

    • Annetta says:

      That is just another popular myth that has been debunked as well:

      Genesis 31:38-40:

      38 These twenty years have I been with you; your sheep, and your female goats have not failed in bearing; and I have not eaten the rams of your cattle. 39 That which was torn of beasts I did not bring to you; I made good of myself the thefts of the day, and the thefts of the night. 40 I was parched with heat by day, and chilled with frost by night, and my sleep departed from my eyes

      Here we see that Jacob kept watch over livestock during the winter. Further proof that this was a common practice in Israel during Jesus’ time can be found in the writings of Canon H.B Tristram (author and traveler) who visited Palestine frequently and is well known for his writings of Palestine and other Middle Eastern areas:

      “A little knoll of olive trees surrounding a group of ruins marks the traditional site of the angels’ appearance to the shepherds, Migdol Eder, ‘the tower of the flock’. But the place where the first ‘Gloria in excelsis’ was sung was probably further east, where the bare hills of the wilderness begin, and a large tract is claimed by the Bethlehemites as a common pasturage. Here the sheep would be too far off to be led into the town at night; and exposed to the attacks of wild beasts from the eastern ravines, where the wolf and the jackal still prowl, and where of old the yet more formidable lion and bear had their covert, they needed the shepherds’ watchful care during the winter and spring months, when alone pasturage is to be found on these bleak uplands“. (Emphasis Added). Picturesque Palestine Vol 1 page 124

      And Messianic Scholar Alfred Edersheim:

      “That the Messiah was born in Bethlehem was a settled conviction. Equally so, was the belief that He was to be revealed from Migdal Eder , the tower of the flock.

      This Migdal Eder, was not the watch tower for ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion that the flocks which pastured there were destined for Temple Sacrifices, and accordingly that the Shepherds who watched over them were, no ordinary Shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism on the account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life, which rendered strict legal observances unlikely, if not absolutely impossible.

      The same Mishnic also leads us to infer, that these flocks lay out all year round , since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before Passover- that is, in the month of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest. Thus Jewish traditions in some dim manner apprehended the first revelation of the Messiah from Migdal Eder, where Shepherds watched the Temple flocks all year round. Of the deep symbolic significance of such a coincidence, it is needless to speak -The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah By Alfred Edersheim

      Furthermore, the Sept birth date is based on pure speculation however the Dec 25th date is historic as it is rooted in Ancient Judaism and the Early Church. Maybe reading the post from Biblical Archaeology cited in the article above will shed more light on this for you.

    • aimee says:

      Christmas was a pagan festival. Look up Rob Skiba . I really cant beleive you just wrote this.

      • JAM says:

        Rob Skiba and Jim Staley

      • copper top says:

        Im with you Aimee, the sheperds were in the fields with their flocks at night when the angel of the lord told them of the birth of Christ. Unless they had good sleeping bags, they wouldn’t be doing that till the spring. Joseph and Mary were traveling back to Bethlehem to be counted for taxes…Travel in the winter is limited and taxes are more lucrative when the weather permits people to attend.Taxes are collected in the spring. He was born in a manger, animals don’t need heated stables, but babies would like heat. Where does the bible tell us to celebrate his birthday? We are to be Christ like. Where in the great commition does it tell us to do these things with Christmas?

    • KStaylor says:

      hmmm… sheep didn’t eat in the winter?? Shepherds for the most part, as i understand them, were pretty nomadic..living outdoors with the sheep. They might bring them into a “corral/fold” for safety at night from predators, but basically they wondered all over to where they could find food to eat. I don’t think there were farmers growing crops of grass and putting it in bales to feed the sheep. You are talking the middle east too, where they don’t get the lake effect snows like the northern parts or even Europe. i don’t recall 15 or 20″ of snow there. why do people assume that the whole world is like the usa??

      • copper top says:

        well I was going to retort but as I read all the others, it appears to be moot

  7. Annetta says:
    • Annetta says:

      On the video and the link there are additional quotes from Scholars as well as early Church proof for Christmas dating all the way to 136 A.D. I forgot to mention that in the other comment.

      • Agreed and am a high supporter of A Rood Awakening and PFT. I am sorry to see that many Christians still defend Christmas, Easter and Halloween. When there is no scripture based for these holidays. To Chris I support your work, however it is sad to see this, when the facts are there in history, in the church history and have been adopted by a Pagan form of Christianity the bible actually warns against. May you find the truth brother Chris and G-d bless you and your ministry!

        • JAM says:

          Agreed

        • Bob says:

          Aaron, where do you suggest we put Christmas on the calendar then? Or are we supposed to not celebrate our Lord’s birth at all ? You are way too legalistic for me bro. Jesus is the reason for the season and as far as I’m concerned, it will always be December 25th for me. Try reading Chris Putmans’ blog again with an open mind.

          • Annetta says:

            Amen, Bob! I do not think many actually read this post and took in what it says, “n the real world. reputable ancient source documents lay waste to the popular pagan origins theory concerning December 25. Biblical Archaeology Review is a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars. The article How December 25 Became Christmas provides ample evidence debunking the pagan origins myth, showing how it actually began, and even demonstrating how 12-5 was decided to be the date of Jesus’s birth. This dates back to the second century ( I challenge pagan theorists to antedate it).”

            Scholars today have debunked the pagan/Christmas connection myth. There is a valid reason for the choice of Dec 25th for Jesus’ date of birth and that date is not found in history BEFORE the early Church in reference to ANY pagan festival or celebration. The post says, “I challenge pagan theorists to antedate it”, but I have not seen one person post an ancient text, inscription, etc that predates the early Church writings. Thus far I have seen Michael Rood, Rob Skiba but that is it. Where is the ancient proof for what they or anyone else claims against the Dec 25th date that prove it is pagan?

            Furthermore, Christ did not “admonish” us to keep the feast, the sabbaths, etc either. Christ focused on the “weightier” matters of the Law. And based on example in the Bible, the Angels kept Jesus’ birth , apparently with great joy. So I seriously doubt God is going to smite Jesus’ followers if they follow that example and kept the birth of Christ with great praise and joy.

          • Rebecca says:

            Oh, Annetta, you are so practical and commonsensical. You give such good references too with qualified scholars. Therefore, I am in really good company because I, too, wonder where the beef was? Where’s the evidence? And for some to think that just because it isn’t in the bible, means God says NO! Well, where is that rule in the bible? Wedding rings were not exchanged in the bible either. They are of pagan origin. Wonder how many are wearing wedding rings now? Hmmmm

          • Christina says:

            @rebecca….actually the giving of wedding jewelry is a well documented aspect of marriage in the Bible.
            For just ONE example, read the story of Isaac and Rebekah. It is a cultural practice that is still in place today, especially in the Middle East. Just because a custom is cultural, it doesn’t necessarily make it “pagan”.

            In regards to Christmas, I am very disappointed with the author’s reasoning. What a joke. Was Jesus’ birthday celebrated in His lifetime? The years following His death? What WAS celebrated, was the fact that He died, so that we may receive forgiveness of sins, and be spiritually reunited with God. At the last supper, Jesus gave the commandment, “do this in remembrance of Me”. He didn’t tell His followers to remember His birthday and celebrate it with silly man made customs, that DO indeed come from pagan religious practices. Jesus said to provide for the poor – not buy ourselves and each other stuff they don’t really need, and doing it His name (supposedly).

            Also, historically, Christmas was a religious holiday. Gifts were not exchanged. They used to exchange New Year gifts, not Christmas gifts.

            Falsehoods and incorrect beliefs were rampant among the early Church. Even more so in the centuries after Jesus came. Where do you all think the vast amount of unbiblical catholic doctrine came from?

          • Rebecca says:

            Oh my goodness. Christina, Rebekah was given a nose ring. Nothing mentioned about Isaac. Either way, no mention of the “traditional” exchange of wedding rings. And seriously, this statement, “Just because a custom is cultural, it doesn’t necessarily make it “pagan”. I thought what was good for the goose was good for the gander? Guess not.

            If it isn’t in the bible or required biblically and it is manmade tradition (cultural), I thought that was your standard and the others? Pagans own nothing. I don’t assign them power over all of God’s creations. He owns the days and nights. Pagans cannot make me do sun worship while I celebrate and remember God’s promised Messiah has arrived.

            You all have barely begun to discover all that is pagan. Society can’t escape from all that the things that originated with pagans. Just like we can’t escape all the non Christians who have made major contributions to the sciences.

            You guys keep beating this poor horse that’s dead already. You have been given evidence that December 25 is not pagan. You (plural you) have provided little to none that it is.

            Look, reject the evidence if you want and I reject yours. But don’t make false claims that we who observe Christmas or that Cris, himself, have provided no evidence. Just say, you think your evidence is better and we’ll leave it at that. You’re free to choose as I am. I have no power to get you on my path, nor do any of you have that power over me. I’ve been there, done that.

            By the way, show me the perfect church. I’d like to look at the website of the perfect church.

          • Christina says:

            @rebecca. You are more than welcome to believe and practice whatever you wish. It’s not my job to change your mind or convict your spirit. For me personally, the Holy Spirit convicted MY heart on the issue of Christmas some time ago. It is difficult to follow this conviction, considering the “backlash” from the Christian community at large.

            No, we cannot escape all things “pagan”. But that doesn’t mean we should embrace them and then call it our own. Imagine if Christians started celebrating, for example, Muslim holidays, and incorporating bits and pieces of Christianity into the celebrations. There would be an uproar from the Christian community! But that is exactly what we have done with holidays like Christmas and Easter.

          • Rebecca says:

            You are telling my story, Christina. Same song, second verse. I have recited it all myself just in the way you have many times. I had a lot of persecution for 25 years. That made me hang in longer as I thought that was evidence what I was doing was right. No, it just meant some people are jerks. That’s all. Let’s pray for one another. Let’s pray that God’s will be done.

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Annetta, thank you for your informative and courteous reply to me.

            And, Yes. I do ~ in fact ~ have an example with infallible evidence in my hands, at this moment.

            It’s my Bible, and thankfully, I use it’s pages, which are NOT ‘online’. I also believe you are a catholic Christian.

            Am I incorrect in this, also?

            Cynthia Lauren

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Yule – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (check it out. It’s Pagan.)

            And, the angels heralded His BIRTH, not repeated birthdays which would be the anniversary of the event.

            Please check out facts and then, respond with ‘great praise and joy’ for standing on Truth (as Jesus said He was and is).

            And, I don’t think God is going to ‘smite’ anyone for celebrating anything, but to say it’s ‘of Him’ as if it were ‘for Him’, is silly. Just plain foolishness. When was the last time you ONLY gave a present to Jesus on His ‘birthday’…?

            When does ANYONE celebrate ANYONE’S birthday by giving tons of presents to others… and not to the guy whose birth it actually is…?

            Pure logic combined with a LOVE for Christ Jesus, would eliminate all of this. If we’d celebrate His birth year ’round… and drew pictures of how He must look ‘today’… well, then…. I’d be celebrating, too. 🙂 But, Nope. I can’t celebrate this because it’s only a tradition made of men (and women, I suppose).

            Jesus TOLD us of folks who would follow ‘traditions’ rather than His Words… Now, you don’t wanna be logged as one of those in His Book, do you, really…? Just for a few ‘presents’…? How much can one give for his soul…?

          • Bob says:

            Merry Christmas! I love saying it.

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Sure you do. You just ‘love’ saying “Merry Christmas”, and that’s why Jesus said: “Father, forgive them. They don’t know what they’re doing” or, ‘saying’, in this instance.

            But, if you ever decide to pick up a Bible, you could maybe read: Matthew 12:37. These are Jesus’s words, Bob. Please let them sink into that hard ‘Merry’ heart of yours… and I’ll still be praying for you, regardless of your sarcasm, which belies your true intent.

            Here. Just ‘in case’ you don’t have a Bible around you:

            Matthew 12:37 New King James Version (NKJV)

            37 For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

            *And, when we say something and DON’T know what it means… Jesus forgives us. But, if we LEARN what something means… and STILL say it…. Well then, the responsibility lays with us.

          • Bob says:

            You are exactly correct.! I couldn’t have defended my point better. Thank you. I think Jesus
            is happy when people love one another so if we need to celebrate
            His birth to show more love, then that is a Good thing. We become more Christ-like. He knows how we like
            ceremony. After all, He made us. Every culture has traditions and holidays. Merry Christmas! I hope Santa gives you a big hug! Ha. I mean Saint Nick!

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Bob. This is for you. I wrote to you in sincerity, in the hopes that you’d see some Truth. Here. I won’t just leave it there…. What do you mean by saying: “Merry Christmas”…?

            Just check it out while I pray for your soul.:

            What does “Merry Christmas” mean literally? Who came out with it? How?

            Pretty interesting research project…I have to say that I learned a lot from it…

            The word “Merry” is simple to define. It unquestionably means to be happy, joyful and light-hearted. The word “merry” fits into the ambience of laughter and frivolity. This word “merry” by itself is innocent and innocuous enough, but as we will now see, it becomes heinously blasphemous when used with the word “Christmas.”

            Here let it be noted that most people think that the word, “Christmas” means “the birth of Christ.” By definition, it means “death of Christ”, and I will prove it by using the World Book Encyclopedia, the Catholic Encyclopedia, and a book entitled, The Mass In Slow Motion.

            The World Book Encyclopedia defines “Christmas” as follows: “The word Christmas comes from “Cristes Maesse”, an early English phrase that means “Mass of Christ.” (1) It is interesting to note that the word “Mass”, as used by the Roman Catholics, has traditionally been rejected by the so-called Protestants, such as Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, Pentecostals and so on. The word “Mass” is strictly a Catholic word and thus, so is “Christ-Mass.”

            It would stand to reason, that since all of these denominations love and embrace “Christ-Mass”, that December 25th is the great homecoming day, when all of the Protestants become Catholic for a day. It would seem that all of the so-called “wayward daughters” of the Romish church return to their mother, the scarlet harlot. Thus, all of the so-called Protestant churches could sing to the Pope that popular song “I’ll be home for Christmas.”

            As previously stated, the word “Mass” in religious usage means a “death sacrifice.” The impact of this fact is horrifying and shocking; for when the millions of people are saying, “Merry Christmas”, they are literally saying “Merry death of Christ!” Furthermore, when the fat man in the red suit laughs boisterously and says, “Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas”, he is mocking and laughing at the suffering and bleeding Saviour, who died for our sins. He does this while parents place their little children into his waiting arms to hear his false promises of gifts that he says he will give them. Consider what you are saying when you say “Merry Christmas.”

            What is so amusing about our Saviour’s painful death? What is so funny? Why is Santa laughing? Why are you going along with it? Your words do count and Satan knows it. Yes, the word “Mass” does mean “death sacrifice”, and to cement that fact, we will consider the definition of the inventors of the religious application of the word “Mass.” I am looking at page 537 of the Catholic Encyclopedia, which says, “In the Christian law, the supreme sacrifice is that of the Mass.” It goes on to say, “The supreme act of worship consists essentially in an offering of a worthy victim to God, the offering made by a proper person, as a priest, the destruction of the victim.” (2) Please note carefully the word, “victim” of the Mass. The Latin word for victim is “Hostia” from which the word “host” is derived. The Mass, by definition of those who coined the word, is a sacrifice involving a victim. There is no other meaning for the word “Mass” or “Christ-Mass.” On page 110 of a book entitled “The Mass In Slow Motion”, we find the following words: “It is only with the consecration that the sacrifice of the Mass is achieved. I have represented the Mass to you, more than once, as a kind of ritual dance.” (3)

            In essence, the Mass is the ceremonial slaying of Jesus Christ over and over again, followed by the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood. The Mass is the death sacrifice, and the “Host” is the victim. This is official Roman Catholic doctrine, and “Christmas” is a word that they invented. Again, I ask, what is so merry about the pain, bleeding, suffering and death of Jesus Christ? Satan has done quite a job of getting millions of so-called “Christians” to blaspheme. What a deceiver he is.
            Now you know the true meaning of the word “Christmas” or Mass of Christ. There is much more to know about this pagan holiday, and we will be glad to provide you with plenty of evidence that Jesus was not born on December 25th, and that Christmas is not only a lie, but is actually a witches’ sabbat called “Yule” in clever disguise. Please contact us at the address below, and for the sake of your soul, flee from idolatry!

          • Paul says:

            “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it… do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way… ” (Deuteronomy 12)

            “These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations… they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight” (Isaiah 66)

            “See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to HUMAN TRADITION, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)

            My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge… in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. Wake up and repent! Turn away from that which is not of God.

            “And be not conformed to THIS WORLD, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.” (Romans 12:2)

          • kevin says:

            you are incorrect about saying christ did not admonish us to keep the feast, the sabbaths, etc.
            # the sabbaths are in the 10 original commandments and jesus said i didn’t not come to do away with the law.
            #2 if you read the old and new testaments it says that when jesus returns that whatever country does not keep the feast will not get rain…….read your bible and quit listening to so called pastors. In the old testament it says that some of the feasts are to be kept forever.
            If u were satan, would you send out thousands of ur workers to infultrait churches or would you just start the seminaries that pastors go to and teach the flock wrong heresies like raptures?

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            You’re correct, obviously, Kevin… But, just a little correction, from a sister in Christ Jesus who stands with you and Him…

            Look up the word ‘heretic’ in any dictionary. (I’ve been chastised by others because of my ‘googling’… so, just look it up ‘wherever’, okay?)

            You will find that the word ‘heretic’ in all its many forms (coined by catholic leadership, to boot) simply means: “Free Thinker”. Yep. Sad, but true, nonetheless, my brother.

            This (once again ad nausium) PROVES that catholic leadership ‘believes’ that whatever THEY SAY, goes. And, in Truth, a ‘heretic’ is merely an INDIVIDUAL who decides his Truth for him, or herself. Check it out. It’ll bless you and when you ‘hear’ of heresies again… just take a moment and remember ‘where’ that word came from.

            I LOVE languages. ALL languages, Kevin. But, since the Bible tells us that we will either be condemned by our words or vindicated by them… I figure that the onus is on the individual to research just what our ‘words’ really mean.

            God bless your socks off, Kevin, as you stand in His Truth.

            Cindy

          • Matt says:

            Jesus was born in the fall. Calculating the date is actually very simple. He died on Nisan 14. Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died. He was 30 when he began his 3 1/2 year ministry (Luke 3:23) counting back from the time of his death puts his birth in the fall. December 25 was a Roman Sun celebration long before Jesus was born. Let’s just call a spade, a spade. Christmas IS. A pagan holiday.

          • In4mayshun says:

            Jesus was born in the fall. Calculating the date is actually very simple. He died on Nisan 14. Jesus was 33 1/2 years old when he died. He was 30 when he began his 3 1/2 year ministry (Luke 3:23) counting back from the time of his death puts his birth in the fall. December 25 was a Roman Sun celebration long before Jesus was born. Let’s just call a spade, a spade. Christmas IS. A pagan holiday.

          • Margaret says:

            Chanukah is when he was conceived. 40 weeks later brings us to the first day of theFeast of Sukkot (Tabernacles).
            That’s the day God gives us to celebrate his birth. (Chanukah aka the festival of light – the Light of the world came into the world via the womb of his mother)

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Oh Bob. You’ve gotta ‘open your mind’ to see this.

            There are over 25 million results when you just ‘google’ Christmas (Christ Mass, derived from Roman Catholic doctrine) my friend.

            Yes. We could ‘change the calendar’ like Pope Gregory did… or, we could even CHANGE the days of the week which are mostly derived from Pagan Gods as well… but, we’d be doin’ this till Jesus does, in fact, return.

            Please don’t argue the impossible. We are not ‘commanded’ or even ‘suggested’ to celebrate any birthdays in the Bible (at least, no Bibles I know of have dared to go that far, as of yet.) But, if Jesus had wanted us to celebrate His birth… He would’ve told us. And, I think He’d’ve asked for a more updated photo of Himself, if He had. 😉 Wouldn’t you…? I mean, REALLY, Bob. When was the last time you celebrated your birthday with a photo of yourself in diapers, my friend…? I’m only asking for you to THINK, rather than to be blinded by traditions, that’s all.

            Celebrating this year, on the beach in Australia, being QUIET with Jesus and thanking Him for coming here, dying for us all, and for His (prayerful) soon return. 🙂

            Cindy Thorpe

          • Nam Marine says:

            AMEN !

          • jaz says:

            Hi Bob; Jesus is the reason for the season said ‘Pagan Catholic Rome’
            The “Mystery of iniquity” was at work in the days of Apostle Paul, still is so!

          • Paul says:

            What “calendar”? Who ordains the holy days — man or God? The Lord gave us ONE day to observe and none else. If you can find Scriptural warrant for other holy-days, please show it. Otherwise you are adding to God’s Word, adding to His ordinances, and setting yourself above Him in the establishment of your traditions via will-worship. We are to worship Him in spirit, not carnal man-made imaginations that have no Biblical basis.

            Legal = man’s law
            Lawful = God’s Law

            Is it “legalistic” to oppose murder and blasphemy? People today have it completely backwards, and uphold the traditions of man as “freedom in Christ” rather than obeying the Lord who bought them with His blood.

          • Annetta says:

            Cynthia, you said, “There are over 25 million results when you just ‘google’ Christmas (Christ Mass, derived from Roman Catholic doctrine) my friend.”

            If you Google, Jesus never existed or Jesus was copied from other religions, you will get just as many results saying that He and the Bible are not real. That does not make it true. It is the ways of the world. Satan wants people to believe his lies and sadly so many like yourself so easily do. Because the world says it, it is true. Human knowledge is your idol but still that knowledge is not based on facts. You posted a lot of quotes from Encyclopedia’s and such but that is not what we asked for. We asked for REAL sources from the ancient text themselves. IF all this is true that Dec 25th was a pagan date BEFORE it was a Christian one, why don’t Scholars and Archaeologist today know this? Former ones assumed there was evidence based on the Chronography of 354 A.D. But nothing has ever been found. The earliest Church reference to Dec 25th predates the Chronography by over 200 years. So where is this proof you claim?And Why are you so much more of an expert then Historians and Archaeologist are/? Cause you used Google and they didn’t? They say NO proof exist before the early Church that it was a pagan date:

            ‘In point of fact, the evidence for a religious festival of ANY KIND for the sun god on December 25 is not only meager but also EXCEPTIONALLY LATE, as it dates to the second half of the FOURTH CENTURY A.D. In fact, it POSTDATES our earliest evidence for the celebration of Christmas’

            ‘Of the mystery cult of Sol Invictus Mithras we know little with certainty, and even if we leave aside the problem of the relationship between the Mithraic mysteries and the public cult of Sol, the notion that Mithraists celebrated December 25th in some fashion is a MODERN INVENTION FOR WHICH THERE IS SIMPLY NO EVIDENCE.’

            ‘There is quite simply NOT ONE IOTA of explicit evidence for a major festival of Sol on December 25th prior to the establishment of Christmas, nor is there any CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE that there was likely to have been one.’,- Prof Steven Hijmans,

            Professor Hijmans is a notable Scholar and Professor of Roman History, Art and Archaeology. So you know more then he does?

            ‘There is NO EVIDENCE OF ANY KIND, NOT EVEN A HINT,from within the cult that this, or any other winter day, was important in the Mithraic calendar. Although three seasonal zodiacal signs are singled out in the iconography (Taurus, Leo and Scorpius), Aquarius, the sign that would correspond to notional mid-winter, being diametrically opposite to Leo, is never paid special attention. NO MITHRAIC VOTIVE IS DATED TO DECEMBER 25TH (VIII A.D. KAL. IAN.). -Jaime Alvar Ezquerra {2}, ‘Romanising oriental Gods: myth, salvation, and ethics in the cults of Cybele, Isis and Mithras’, in Gordon (ed. trans.), Religions in the Graeco-Roman World, p. 410 (2008).

            Jaime Alvar Ezquerra is a Spanish historian, author and professor at the Charles III University of Madrid, specializing in ancient history.

            Polemicists (and The Da Vinci Code) frequently state that 25 December was Mithras’ birthday, yet the renowned Mithraic scholar, Dr Richard Gordon has corresponded to me that he is unaware of ‘a single date on a Mithraic inscription that falls in the winter, let alone late in December… We know NOTHING about the cycle of rituals in the cult…’ So, Christmas owes nothing to Mithraism. – Quote from Dr. Richard Gordon from answering-islam. org

            Dr. Richard L. Gordon was honorary professor of Religionsgeschichte der Antike at the University of Erfurt, Thuringen.

            ‘Many Christians think that Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25th because the church fathers appropriated the date of a pagan festival. Almost no one minds, except for a few groups on the fringes of American Evangelicalism, who seem to think that this makes Christmas itself a pagan festival. But it is perhaps interesting to know that the choice of December 25th is the result of attempts among the earliest Christians to figure out the date of Jesus’ birth based on calendrical calculations that had nothing to do with pagan festivals.

            Rather, the pagan festival of the “Birth of the Unconquered Son” instituted by the Roman Emperor Aurelian on 25 December 274, was almost certainly an attempt to create a pagan alternative to a date that was already of some significance to Roman Christians. Thus the “pagan origins of Christmas” is a myth without historical substance’. -Dr. William Tighe, Touchstone Magazine, Professor of History at Muhlenburg College

            Add to this list, Anglican Scholar Andrew McGowan, French scholar Louis Duchesne and Thomas Talley among many many others plus current updated Encyclopedia’s:

            ‘This view presumes—as does the view associating the origin of Christmas on December 25 with pagan celebrations of the winter equinox—that Christians appropriated pagan names and holidays for their highest festivals. Given the determination with which Christians combated all forms of paganism, this appears a rather dubious presumption’. -Encyclopedia Britannica Online, Easter

            So you have something, from Google, some ancient text that these professionals in their fields of History and Archaeology have never seen? You Googled it and that is suddenly infallible evidence even though in reality offline there is no real evidence?

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Annetta, thank you for your informative and courteous reply to me.

            And, Yes. I do ~ in fact ~ have an example with infallible evidence in my hands, at this moment.

            It’s my Bible, and thankfully, I use it’s pages, which are NOT ‘online’. I also believe you are a catholic Christian.

            Am I incorrect in this, also?

            Cynthia Lauren

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Annetta. I didn’t say that you were of the Catholic religion. I didn’t say that. I merely said that I believe your slant is from ‘catholicism’ which means ‘universal’, okay? Just that. No more.

            But, your reply was sent to my inbox and is NOT even posted here, as of yet.

            Nonetheless, my response to you is that by having Cris ‘stand on’ a ‘date of Jesus’s conception’ (his last sentence in this article of his) he is going by our current Gregorian calendar, and thus ~ incorrect, ’cause Gregory didn’t change the calendar till after HE was born, which is obviously AFTER all this ‘conception stuff’ took place.

            If you use the correct calendar, then, okay. Anyone can extrapolate on silly stuff that doesn’t make one bit of business insofar as Salvation goes. BUT, if you (and others) continue to celebrate CHRIST MASS (and, will you now enlighten me as to where this word came into being?), you are going into idolatry and pagan worship. Plain an’ simple. And, God’s Word speaks against this. He says to ”come out from among them and be separate”, and to continue to support this idolatry is merely a slap in Jesus’s Face. Period.

            History is MADE up by human beings with nefarious agendas or otherwise. But, we have our Bibles, in the Textus Receptus which stands brilliantly with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Nothing more needs be said. God bless you, kiddo.

            Cynthia Lauren

          • Mark says:

            Cynthia, let truth rein. Here it is.
            Read with understanding and know these dates are locked in. You will find why I choose the
            second ministration , 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

            “THE COURSE OF ABIA” (Luke 1:5 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

            This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration in the Temple (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and occurred, as did the others, twice in the year.

            The “Courses” were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Appendix 51. 5). This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the “Great Day of the Feast” (John 7:37 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and was a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

            The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia or Abijah (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

            Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the three Great Feasts, the dates for the two yearly “ministrations” of Abiah will be seen to fall as follows:

            The first 9 ministration was from 12-18 Chisleu = December 6-12.

            The second ministration was from 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

            The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conception of John the Baptist took place between 12-18 SIVAN (June 13-19), in the year 5 B.C. After finishing his “ministration”, the aged priest “departed to his own house” (Luke 1:23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), which was in a city10 in “the hill country” of Juda (verse 39).

            The day following the end of the “Course of Abia” being a Sabbath (Sivan 19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.

            The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a couple of days at least. He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21st or 22nd. This leaves ample time for the miraculous “conception” of Elizabeth to take place on or about 23rd of SIVAN 11 – which would correspond to June 23-24 of that year. The fact of the conception and its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards, and hence the 23rd SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conception of John Baptist as the 1st TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.

            But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliterated the real dates of our Lord’s “Begetting” and Birth, were also at work with regard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results. As soon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its proper date, videlicet: the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from the Pagan Calendars substituted for it (videlicet: December 25), then everything else had to be altered too.

            Hence “Lady Day” in association with March 25 (new style) became necessarily connected with the Annunciation. And June 24 made its appearance, as it still is in our Calendar, as the date of “the Nativity of John the Baptist”, instead of, as it really is, the date of his miraculous conception.

            The Four “Quarter Days” may therefore be set forth thus: first in the chronological order of the events with which they are associated, videlicet:

            The conception of John Baptist on or about 23rd SIVAN = June 24 in the year 5 B.C.
            The Gennesis (Begetting) of our Lord on or about 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
            The birth of John Baptist on or about 4th-7th NISAN = March 25-28 in the year 4 B.C.
            The birth of our Lord on or about 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

            or, placing the two sets together naturally:-

            {The conception of John 23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] rd SIVAN = June 23-24 in the year 5 B.C.
            {The birth of John 7 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] th NISAN = March 28-29 in the year 4 B.C.
            {The Miraculous “Begetting” 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
            {The NATIVITY 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

          • Mark says:

            One more for you…….Look for reasons to believe. Not for reasons not to believe. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Please look into what I present you objectively. All ancient civilizations used a solar calender including the time of Jesus. In the form of a sun dial…..No such thing as a moon dial, He heee… See :
            1 Thessalonians 5:5:
            Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
            One the third level, all prophecy given in days are for God’s children, all given in moon’s or of the night are given to satan’s own. Very crucial in rightly dividing God’s word. There is no excuse for a Christian not to know this. People back then, didn’t have Swiss watches and weekends. A time zone was unheard of. Just seven sets of fifty and 15 days left over.
            Here is more truth:
            To know the accurate date of Jesus birth you have to study the different courses the Levitical priests at that time
            Here are my calculations
            The Lineage and birth-date of Jesus
            Jesus lineage comes thru Mary not Joseph as Joseph was not the father of Jesus. He was just an in-law or (as was supposed) Elisabeth and Mary were cousins and their mothers were sisters who were of the daughters of Aaron a Levite. Luke 1-5. Mary’s genealogy is in Luke 3 and her name is not mentioned because Jewish tradition did not mention the woman in genealogy, so Joseph, as was supposed, meaning: (in-law) is put in place of Mary. Mary’s Father Heli or Eli was a Jew so Jesus was half Jew and half Levite, the King line and the Priest line and God All in One Jesus Christ.
            The Genealogy in Matthew is of Joseph the “legal” Father of Jesus The genealogy in Luke is of Mary the “biological” mother of Jesus. Thus the question as to why the Genealogy’s listed in the two Gospels are different.
            Zacharias the father of John the Baptist and Elisabeth’s husband was a Levitical priest on the Course of Abia. 2 times a year. Dec. 6-13 and June 13-19. At his return from his Levitical duties on around June 22 to 25 John the Baptist was conceived. Six months later Elisabeth met with Mary in Nazareth the night after Jesus was conceived around Dec. 25th.
            Luke 1:
            4 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
            25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.
            26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
            27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
            And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
            36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
            37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
            Twice it is said that six months passed by after the conception of John the Babtist on June 22-25 which 6 months later is Dec. 25th the day Jesus was conceived. Nine months later he was born on Sept 29.This is not rocket science, just read it with understanding. December 25th is the day our LORD became flesh and Sept 29 was the day HE was born. September 29 should be celebrated just as December 25.
            Gabriel announced that Mary and Elisabeth were cousins and that Elisabeth would conceive John and that Mary would conceive Jesus.

          • Annetta says:

            Cynthia, you are incorrect as I am not Catholic nor have I been part of the RCC. In fact our website presents many articles against Catholicism and the HRM since both are very similar in their superstitions, idolatry and barriers to having a true relationship with Christ. I am a Christian who once viewed things as you do now. I do however respect the early Church before the RCC emerged and did truly paganize Christianity. But things like the celebration of Jesus’ birth is not something that was created by them.

            You said:

            It’s my Bible, and thankfully, I use it’s pages, which are NOT ‘online’. I also believe you are a catholic Christian.

            In the Bible we read this about Jesus’ birth:

            Luke 2:13-20:

            And suddenly there was with the angel A MULTITUDE OF HEAVENLY HOST PRAISING GOD and saying: 14 “GLORY TO GOD IN THE HIGHEST, and on earth peace, goodwill toward men!” 15 So it was, when the angels had departed from them into heaven, that the shepherds said to one another, “Let us go then to Bethlehem and see this thing that has come to pass, which the Lord has made known to us.” 16 And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the Baby lying in a manger. 17 And when they had seen Him, they made widely known the saying which was told them concerning this Child. 18 And ALL THOSE WHO HEART MARVELED ABOUT THE THINGS SPOKEN BY THE SHEPHERDS TO THEM. 19 But Mary treasured all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20 Then the shepherds returned, GLORIFYING AND PRAISING GOD for all the things that they had heard and seen, as it was spoken to them.

            We may not have a direct commandment in the Bible to keep Jesus’ birth but we sure do have a very fine example of it. God did not smite the Angels or the Shepherds for praising and glorifying Him for Jesus’ incarnation so I really don’t think He is going to smite any Christians for doing the same. You see, you look at everything with superstition. It is through carnal eyes and not through the spirit. I know because I have been there.

            We see Christ in this season and you do not. You see modern inventions such as commercialism, decorating some trees, and Santa Claus and these are red flags for you that it is pagan. But you only see what modern myth has brainwashed you into seeing. We know that we are suppose to keep Christ all year, everyday, but some seasons provide time for quiet pondering and reflection on specific gifts that God gave to us as well as specific events in Jesus’ life. Christmas or whatever you want to call it, is for Christians a time for great reflection and thankfulness for the birth of our Savior because without the birth there would be no death. There would be no New Covenant. There would be no defeat of Satan and the grave. Man would still be waiting, along with all creation for our Savior to come. We would not have the gift of the Holy Spirit or Eternal Life. And this is why the Angels and the Shepherds praised and glorified God because the promise had finally come to earth to save man-kind. Everything, all creation, was in awe. Satan would be defeated and man-kind would be saved if they believed and followed. To think that God sent His only son to save us is amazing. As a parent that is an unthinkable sacrifice, knowing that your child would die for others. It would required love that not many, if any of us can comprehend. So there is no direct command in the Bible to keep the Nativity, but there sure is an abundance of proof that it was a reason to celebrate it.

            So going back to the date issue which is what we were discussing, you or anyone else for that matter has not provided anything that proves the pagan/Dec 25th connection. If you are so eager to persecute Christmas and use an argument against the date as one reason, shouldn’t you prove the accusation?

          • Annetta says:

            Cynthia, I posted something close to this earlier but my Internet dropped so I don’t think it took. So in case it didn’t here is roughly what I Said,

            You said:

            “Annetta. I didn’t say that you were of the Catholic religion. I didn’t say that. I merely said that I believe your slant is from ‘catholicism’ which means ‘universal’, okay? Just that. No more..”

            Ah but you did not say this, instead you said:

            ” I also believe you are a catholic Christian.”

            In which I replied that I am not.

            Catholic Christian usually means RC. Furthermore, I do not see what difference it makes if my “slant” is Catholic/Universal. Seems to me that this would go in my favor for being convicted of truth since universal literally meant no longer Greek or Jew but heirs to Eternal Life through faith in Christ thus recipients of the Holy Spirit.

            Next this is completely incorrect:

            Nonetheless, my response to you is that by having Cris ‘stand on’ a ‘date of Jesus’s conception’ (his last sentence in this article of his) he is going by our current Gregorian calendar, and thus ~ incorrect, ’cause Gregory didn’t change the calendar till after HE was born, which is obviously AFTER all this ‘conception stuff’ took place.

            Pope Gregory created his calendar in 1582 A.D. That is over 1300 years after the era we are talking about which dates back to Ancient Judaism long before the Gregorian Calendar:

            ” The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.)14 Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later “ Talley, Origins, pp. 81–82.
            “It was a traditional Jewish belief that great men lived a whole number of years, without fractions, so that Jesus was considered to have been CONCEIVED on 25 March, as he died on 25 March,which was calculated to have coincided with 14 Nisan.” -William J. Colinge, Historical Dictionary of Catholicism

            The early Church used what is today called the Integral Age theory of Judaism and come to the date of Jesus’ birth. Nothing says that this date is incorrect and nothing predates it in paganism.

            You said:

            “Anyone can extrapolate on silly stuff that doesn’t make one bit of business insofar as Salvation goes. BUT, if you (and others) continue to celebrate CHRIST MASS (and, will you now enlighten me as to where this word came into being?), you are going into idolatry and pagan worship. Plain an’ simple. And, God’s Word speaks against this. He says to ”come out from among them and be separate”, and to continue to support this idolatry is merely a slap in Jesus’s Face. Period.”

            It is “silly” to you but again it was not silly to the Angels or the Shepherds and it is not silly to us. It does not either way matter salvation wise but people such as yourself who are always pointing the finger and condemning people as idol worshipers certainly do act as it it does impact our salvation.

            Also the word Christmas is RC from around the 11th century A.D., however celebrating the Nativity dates back to 250 A.D. in documentation and the date itself as the birth of Christ to 136 A.D. Call it the Nativity or Christmas, they are only words and do not matter.

            Also you said:

            History is MADE up by human beings with nefarious agendas or otherwise. But, we have our Bibles, in the Textus Receptus which stands brilliantly with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Nothing more needs be said. God bless you, kiddo.

            You are correct, history is made up by humans. People such as yourself seek to redefine the New Testament, the New Covenant and how God interacted with the early Church. You take it upon yourself to point fingers and accuse Christians for things that they have kept and believed since the beginning or very close at least to the time of Christ. After all according to those who believe as yourself, God abandoned the early Church very soon after the Apostles died, didn’t He? How else could the early Christians be so wrong about things like Jesus’ birth unless they were without the Holy Spirit right? Plus God, apparently lied since He said He would never forsake us or leave us but again according to your version of history He did right? In turn He is also a liar and extremely irresponsible since the New Covenant was so important but then not enough for God to guide Christians and protect it so that it would be properly evangelized to others.

            Also God did promise that the Nations would know Him but this was accomplished through those who paganized the Church right which gives them half credit or they did not really know Him so His promise failed and He lied. Either way, God did not care much for those who willingly went to death rather then deny Jesus’ name. At least the is the HRM version of history.

            Furthermore, Christ quotes the OT and says that “In His name the gentiles will trust” but then according to people such as yourself this could not have happened either since the gentiles have so mislead us correct, especially the early ones who did not keep the Law and kept Jesus’ birth? Seems like there is a lot of accusing God in a round about way in there and rewriting of history.

            You also mention the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Textus Receptus, both of which support our stance. The Dead Sea Scrolls contained a Temple Roster showing that Zacharias’ course would have been during the Day of Atonement. Therefore, John would have been conceived just after in late September, born in June and Christ six months later in December. And the Textus Receptus was the majority text of the early Christians who persevered and preserved it for you. So you have them and God’s guidance of them to thank for that. So they got that right but they were incorrect on everything else they did? If God guided them in that, how do you know and who are you to say that He did not guide them in other things they did including keeping Jesus’ birth? I would not want the weight of persecuting 1800 years of Christians and redefining/rewriting their history just so I could be right if I were you. You might just be persecuting God at the same time.

  8. Awilson says:

    Cris,
    Love your depth of understanding and your knowledge of both scripture and early historical writings. Am I to assume that the searchable logos software put the C.E. On the “around 200 C.E Tertullion” piece. I might be a stick in the mud but I always correct people when they say “common era” instead of Anno Domini and point out that B.C.E. is infact “B.efore C.hrist”. I find the secular world tries to erase the fact for the last 2000 plus years this is how the world counted and honored his birth and death. The world has been anything but “common” since the creator entered his own creation. Love all that you do and enjoy listening to your growing number of interviews… Really liked you with Steve Quayle, you two really complimented each other’s knowledge base and were quite enjoyable to listen too. Thanks n
    Much.

  9. Phillip says:

    I was genuinely interested in the article until I saw that it could not go one sentence with bashing scholars who disagree. This, to me, is an example of pseudo-reasoning, and sounds more like a rant than an argument.

    http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append179.html

  10. tid says:

    yup its to cold in Bethlehem ON DEC.25 ..no flock in the field…plus santa unscrambled is satan.

    • ed says:

      Yes. Santa flies in a red devil suit , in a ship with a that defies gravity( fling saucer{UFO}).
      Something wrong with all this! :- )

  11. tj says:

    his birth was in the fall, on the feast of Tabernacles, September 11, 3BC, when the shepherds were in the fields with their flocks and all the inns were filled with travelers coming up for the feast as they were commanded. nothing going on in winter to fill up the inns, no shepherds in the fields, no self-respecting husband making his nine months pregnant wife travel cross country in mid winter, get real. full well ye make vain the word of God with your traditions.

    • Joe Wood says:

      A great book for this subject is, Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed. This book lays out not only the day but the time frame as well, which is derived from the book, the Revelation of Jesus Christ (or the book of Revelation) with the woman giving birth to the child and the serpent there to destroy it. He was not born in the month of December.

  12. jody says:

    Truth or tradition???

  13. jody says:

    oops sorry about that try this truth or tradition

  14. Rebecca says:

    Now don’t be offended and go off the deep end. But….if I were Satan, I’d rather have people not celebrating a date the promised Messiah came into our world. That is not how I would mislead people, celebrating the arrival of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. I just couldn’t deal with that. Year after year, this HUGE celebration that not only got the attention of followers of Christ but got the attention of atheists too. Everybody wanting a part of the celebration, some for the right reasons and some not for the right reasons. But no matter where I turn, it’s there in my face. I am clever enough, experienced enough to find a better way that doesn’t subject me to Silent Night or the Christmas story. That’s how I think Satan operates.

    I believe Satan knows our weaknesses. It would seem that he would target where we are most vulnerable. Different strokes for different folks. Some folks are legalists. They thrive on that. And if I recognize it, surely Satan does. How befitting it is that he would whisper in some ears that the holiday is of pagan origin, that, in fact, the date is a pagan holiday. And certain folks would buy it long long after evidence was produced to show otherwise. And why? Because that is how legalists are bent. Satan uses different strategies for different people with different weaknesses. Let’s be logical. The name that makes Satan tremble, it makes no sense that he would torture himself and use Christmas or Easter. Think of how these holidays elevate God’s son, how they rub it in that God’s plan is coming to fruition. Maybe we can dispel this myth that Satan in behind Christmas.

    Now combine that logic with all the info Cris has provided, all the credible resources. Combine that with all the other credible resources that other Christmas observing Christians have given you. There is a wealth of it. Look at it. Can you be objective? After all of this, you still don’t see it? You can’t blame the scholars that have gone before you and even now, present day scholars that give you very reliable evidence.

    One thing I have notice about legalists. They have no joy. Not deep in the gut joy. Not even a peaceful, tranquil joy. I notice this in how they write on blogs, not after anyone has provoked them but at the start. When Jesus was born, the angles rejoiced and said, ” good tidings of great joy”. Luke 2:10 Jesus said, “These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.” John 15:11 Now the Jews of the Old Testament were a gripy people. Chronic complainers. I’ll stop there.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      I appreciate your words and I especially enjoy Cris’s words…

      But, may I ask ‘both’ of you just ONE question regarding this ‘Jesus’s Birthday-Thing’?

      When was the last time ANYONE had a birthday (year after countless year) and have photos only of your ‘birth’ in a manger, or otherwise…?

      Insofar as I am concerned, I have researched this topic off and on for 25 years and I don’t think ANYONE can say that it isn’t a Pagan Holiday, because it’s the time of the ‘winter solstice’, and little Tamuz and all the other silly ‘gods’ JUST so happen to ‘tag along’ on this December 24th issue.

      My rationale? If it WAS Jesus’s birthday… Christians all over the globe would be glorifying HIM, AS HE IS ~ rather than showing a baby in a manger, guys. I mean, when I was 18 and HIP DEEP in this world of trouble ~ I looked at that ‘cute little baby’ and said to myself: “What can this KID do for me?”

      So, now are you also going to defend Jesus’s perpetual hanging on the cross all over the place, too…? Either way it’s a ‘lie’ guys, and I’m NO ‘legalist either’. We always ONLY see Jesus as a diaper clad infant or, a dead man on a cross with yet another ‘diaper’ on…. If anyone wanted REAL TRUTH, the diaper would not be there…right?

      Boy. THAT would ‘offend’ so many ‘legalists’ and even atheists ~ that He’d be off the cross in their churches ~ for GOOD.
      Your sister who only ‘does the Berean’ thing, with the Truth.
      Cynthia Lauren

      • Rebecca says:

        Cynthia, if that is how you see it, I don’t think I can change your mind. You have made some truth claims, everyone who is anti Christmas has and yet, no one has posted the evidence…..at least so far. I haven’t scrolled down this morning yet. Keep in mind that many posting here have been where you are now too. And they now know they have a fresh pair of eyes to see and ears to hear. We are often charged with turning back out of selfish, disobedient reasons. But we know, all of us know, the Light went on. By God’s GRACE, because we certainly didn’t deserve it, the Light went on.

        You and I both see the insanity of the other’s claims. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I too was tied up for 25 years, not believing in the righteousness of Christmas and not celebrating. Even though I thought I was ahead of the game in regards to family and friends and those other poor “lost” Christians, I can only tell you, those were years of darkness and then I came into the light. I used all the reasons you have stated. What I failed to do, even though I thought I had, was to spend time with a qualified person week after week, to counter all the truth claims I made. I thought I had turned over every rock. I had not. Don’t ask my why I allowed such lack of evidence to sway me. I’m still trying to figure that out. I know some of it but it is a rather long testimony and journey as you can imagine after 25 years.

        As far as birthdays go, I have ten children. Every year on their birthday, I give an account of their birth. I go back in time and I recreate the event for them. They know the stories but still like to hear them and now their children, my grandchildren want to hear the stories. And no one is mistaken for still being a baby, even when we drag out baby pictures.

        If as a teenager you thought it was about a baby in a diaper that can rescue you then and there at that age, I don’t know where you got that idea and didn’t hear the rest of the story. But, honestly, I remember thinking odd things like that too when I was very young and never pushing it and inquiring about it but rather accepting it. Why do young people do that? I don’t have a clue? The baby in the manger symbolizes a promise God made and kept. It symbolizes that the long, long wait for this Promised One is over. He has arrived!

        As far as Jesus being a dead man on a cross, yes, He came in the flesh, fully God, fully man, and suffered for us in the same way all the criminals experienced suffering on their cross. Many account reveal that His suffering was even greater because of whom He claimed to be. This man Jesus, is the Son of God and did not have to endure all He did. For me, when I fell deeply in love with this Christ who went to Calvary for me, I knew I would never turn away from looking at the cross or a replica, lest I forget the fullness of it all. I don’t want it to be a bad memory filed away in my memory bank with other bad memories because those memories don’t come close to comparing.

        So, the cross for many of us is cherished symbol of atonement, forgiveness, grace, and love, accomplished by One who forgave us even while we hated Him. Luke 23:34

        As believers, we are called to die to self, and take up our cross. Luke 9:24&25. What does that mean? To be willing to die if necessary in order to follow Christ. If we understand that, if we really get that it calls for complete surrendering our life to Him, maybe even in death, then it will weed out false converts now as it did then. Every time we look at the cross, it should remind us of our commitment to Him and the seriousness of it.

        I know you know many of these things. I mention them as a response to your questions, explaining how powerful God’s fulfilled promise of a Messiah and how powerful the cross and His death is to me.

      • blendahtom says:

        @Cynthia Lauren Thorpe

        Just wanted to thank you for your desire engage in truth in love.

        You are right on with your points.

        The bottom line is scripture never advocates this type of worship in fact it teaches against it.

        It’s called syncretism. (God Abhors it)

        Remember when Aaron decided to fashion the golden calf?

        Guess what .. he had good intentions. They made a feast unto the Lord. (Exo 32:5)

        And the Lord had FURY against them for mixing the Gods of the nations with worship to Him.

        What did Moses do when he saw with his own eyes?

        He melted the calf down .. ground it into powder .. put it in the water and made them DRINK it.

        This example is shown over and over again through the scriptures.

        Even Jesus corrects the Samaritan woman at the well when she tells him they worship the same God. (John 4:20-23)

        Jesus rebukes her and tells here that isn’t the case.. they worship what they do not now.

        We MUST worship God in Spirit and Truth. (btw , I’m not part of HRM or advocate them)

        If you go back to 2 Kings 17 you can see the origin of how the Samaritans learned to “fear God” and serve their own gods.

        By definition, syncretism is illogical. Mixing belief systems into the gospel is the same perversion for which Jesus convicted the Pharisees. In Matthew 15, he condemned their habit of setting aside divine law when human precept was more convenient. Are there people nowadays who claim piety and praise Jesus but guiltlessly lie or engage in immorality or steal when it suits them better? Are there people who adhere to the Bible except when situation ethics promises to free them from an embarrassing circumstance?

        “Hypocrites, Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men'” (Matthew 15:7-9)

        Grace & Truth
        Tom

        • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

          Thank you, Tom. I am refreshed by your standing on Scripture rather than emotion and Greek intellect (to which the Gospel was ‘foolishness’).

          I find that ‘increasingly’ at this time of year when all sorts of ‘Anti’s are making their paganistic agendas come forward, that it is the appropriate time to fast and pray.

          We are commanded (Yes. COMMANDED) to keep vigil and to be in Paul’s 24/7 prayer, my Brother. And, I will stand with you, as I now see the events which have seemingly been on ‘fast forward’ have upped into ‘warp speed’ in the effort to wreak as much havoc as is possible, considering the short time they have left.

          God BLESS you, Tom, and I invite you to read my Blog Testimony that I have stepped forward to write in order to share the ‘real Truth’ of what we were born into when our Creator birthed us into these times.

          https://clthorpesa.wordpress.com

          From what you will garner from this Truth I wrote of, you will know that what I was ‘around’ in the music industry was truly evil ~ yet, our Savior’s Strong Arm ~ saved me when I was dangling over the precipice of Hell, itself.

          THIS is the reason for my zeal, Tom. And, ever since that day that Jesus saved me, I’ve read and prayed and researched and as a result of His Grace alone ~ I am, where I am, today.

          Therefore, I invite you to read and understand how His Passion became mine. Just as our Brother, Luther said rightly, I stand with him, as well. “Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God. Amen.”

          Cynthia

    • Christine says:

      Thank you Rebecca. I was reading the previous comments and just shuddering at their cold, legalistic,Pharisaical harsh version of God and the Faith. Constructing new premises 2,000yrs after the event strikes me as egocentric and flawed reasoning. I prefer to rely on sources which date back to a generation or two after the original Christians. The original Christians knew everything we know today (about jewish feast days, genealogies, when shepherds are in the fields, etc etc), – plus much more. Even when detectives try to solve an old crime, they wisely give credence to the original witnesses and those closest to the event.
      At the core, is an issue of Trust, both in God Jesus and the wisdom/goodness of generations of Believers who came before me. There is something very unpleasant about people who arrogantly think that they finally have “the” revealed truth, while God allowed 2000 years of previous believers to just wander in the dark. I will continue to enjoy celebrating my Lord’s birth on December 25th.

      • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

        I don’t appreciate your words at all, Christine. Okay. Just do us ‘cold, legalistic, Pharisaical, harsh, folks a burst of your Bible knowledge.

        Give us just ‘one scripture’ that supports playing Jesus’s birthday during a time that’s definitely Pagan. God tells us to ‘come out from among them and be separate’. That means not playing with idolatry, Christine.

        That’s ‘my’ view that I have SOLELY because I read and follow the Word of God. I’ll assume you read the Bible, too. So, just give me a scripture that backs all you say… because we’re supposed to follow Jesus and the Bible, and keep away from traditions made of ‘men’ (which means ‘all humans’).

        Just google ‘traditions made of men’ and the word ‘scripture’ and you’ll find MANY verses that confirm what I’m attempting to share with you. Being LOVING is being TRUTHFUL, Christine. I’m very sorry you can’t see that, obviously.

        Cynthia Lauren Thorpe

        • jmvpho says:

          Hey, you’re forgetting the teachings of 1Cor 8 & 10. “An idol is nothing” and neither is a pagan god anything. They are fictitious imaginings in people’s minds. They don’t have power. They don’t compete with YHVH except in the flawed recesses of distorted people’s minds. Every day is “good” and there are no pagan days.

          You and I should not care what the guy down the street is doing right now in his living room. Even if he’s drawn a pentagram and is chanting some nonsense, what does it matter to today? Same with Dec 25 on any year of the calender. “Do not inquire…..the earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof”. To declare “pagan” days and pagan symbols (rainbow) and pagan idols (trees) is like saying that these things have been yanked from the “good” creation of YHVH and given to a figment of someone’s imagination. It is doubtful that YHVH would be happy with a person who’s understanding is so fragmented.

          The bible does not specifically say when Yeshua was born but there are clues. We know He has not fulfilled the Fall feasts and we know that people were not dwelling in booths, nor were they in Jerusalem. Therefore, the FEast of Tabernacles is ruled out.

          We know that shepherds had to watch the flock held for temple sacrifice, at all times of the year and would have certainly been in the field that night if they had a warm spell. Last week in Atlanta, it was in the 70’s in December and we’re further north than Israel. Likewise, there is a great insight above in the comments of Jacob telling us that he watched the flock in the fields for his father in law both in the heat of summer and the cold of winter. And I think we can all agree that YHVH is sovereign over the weather, especially during the time of the Messiah’s birth.

          What we can search out is the prophesy of Haggai. The day “the foundation stone was laid” was the 24th of Kislev. That is December on the Gregorian calendar. Who is that cornerstone?

  15. Jean Vee says:

    Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years….I can just see the apostle Paul: “Hey guys, we need to stop trying to rescue souls, and observe the “holiday”.
    Jer.10 – 2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
    Truth needs to be stuck to no matter what. Nowhere in church doctrine are we instructed to yield to such an observance.

    If a man love me, he will keep my words…

    • Josppht says:

      Its a marvel to see how far people justify their deeds.

      If Christians made Christmas then it would be found in the practice of the Bible. There best evidence that we’re not to partake in such a thing is the fact that the Bible doesn’t mention it at all.

      Pr 17:15 ¶ He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

    • Bob says:

      Baa Humbug. Ok Scrooge. Have sweet dreams. Praise God for Christmas! I love presents. Jesus is the greatest gift of all! Let’s celebrate!

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      There’s one more thing, too. IF we ‘love Him’ ~ we’re to KEEP His Commandments, and nowhere in the entire Bible does it say to celebrate Jesus’s Birthday. Nowhere.

      He was ‘around’ for 3.5 years of ministry. Why were there no ‘feasts of His Birth’ mentioned that His followers kept…?

      This issue may sound ‘trite’, this ‘banter’ about ‘how and why to celebrate Jesus’s Birthday’… But, in fact, why not just imagine yourself in front of Jesus, ‘someday’… and try telling Him why you gave others tons of expensive gifts and dashed around all over the place ‘FOR ‘HIS’ BIRTH’… when He never told you to do that, in the first place???

      This is absurdity in the highest degree, ladies and gentlemen. We are merely FOLLOWING THE TRADITIONS OF MEN by doing all the silly obnoxious self-centered stuff that is done ‘in the ‘name’ of Jesus’ ~ but, smacks of pure paganism rather than Jesus at all. “IF YOU LOVE ME…” Well, if we did LOVE ‘The Truth’ (which He says He is) we wouldn’t be participating in this with only a ‘veneer’ of Him to cover our greed and covetousness… THAT’S for sure.

      And, I’m a ‘happy upbeat Christian gal’ 365 days a year ~ even in really trying times ~ like those of today… So, don’t tell me that just ’cause I don’t wanna follow traditions of humans, that I can’t be ‘fun’ just following what Jesus said to do… ‘Cause if you do that ~ you’re just ‘grasping at Christ-Mass (check out what THAT means) fig leaves.

      Cynthia Lauren
      Thanking Jesus for His Birth and His GROWN-UP-NESS of today… unless, that is ~ you all want Him up on His Throne in Heaven now… needing His diapers changed once again.

      • jmvpho says:

        Does the bible tell you to drive a car? Do you drive?
        Does the bible tell you to go/not go to movies? Do you go?
        Does the bible tell you to celebrate the friendship between the pilgrims and the indians? Do you celebrate Thanksgiving?
        Do you recognize Father’s day, Mother’s day, 4th of July, or any other civic holiday? Does the bible tell you to do those things?

        WE have to use our brains. An argument of silence (when a subject does not appear in the bible) does not prove anything.

        However, if you will look into Haggai’s prophesy as I wrote about above and read that “the day the foundation stone was laid” was the 24th of Kislev (December on the Gregorian calendar) and then ask yourself, Who does the bible identify as the “Cornerstone” of foundation stone of the temple? Then do a little bit of biblical research and you will find that on that day, the physical temple was rededicated after Antiochus Epiphanes desecrated it 3 years before, you will see that the sanctification of the physical temple and the metaphysical temple were both on the same date, Kislev 24.

        So, when Yeshua was at the Feast of Dedication (John 10:22), it perhaps may just have been His birthday. Didn’t He, Himself say, “destroy this temple and in three days, I will raise it up”?

        • Paul says:

          Completely fallacious equivocation. We are talking about the worship of God, not secular activities.

          “WE have to use our brains.”

          Now, we have to use the Bible.

          “An argument of silence”

          How many times does God command us to worship Him as HE prescribes, and to not add nor take away from His Word?

  16. Mickey Merrie says:

    Ever hear of the DVD The Star of Bethlehem? Seems an attorney used Starry Night Software to go back and see if he could find the Star. He found much more. One thing he discovered is that the day the Star stopped over Bethlehem was December 25th. That date was the date that the “Wise Men” showed up and gave presents to the little child, no baby in a manger then. Scripture will show this. They asked Herod where the King of the Jews was thus He was born some time prior. Herod had children 2 and under killed, not newborns.

    Thought you and others might want to re-study your conclusions in light of what scripture clearly teaches, and what also this software reveals, since the movement of stars are a giant timepiece once you understand the math.
    This attorney makes a compelling case to say the least!

    http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

    • Cris Putnam says:

      You guys are missing the point, I really don’t believe he was born on Dec 25. never said that, All I am arguing is that the choice of date was not based on a pagan holiday as commonly claimed.

  17. Harvey says:

    Bah…humbug…

  18. Noidol says:

    Whether it is “from” paganism or not is irrelevant. It still “is” a pagan holiday. The infuriating image on approach from the north as explained in Ezekiel 8. This myth comes from Rome, the vatican, the woman sitting on the beast. Ezekiel describes being before our Father at His temple in Jerusalem. To the north side of the temple is shown to be the site of the infuriating image which is the site of the “crucifiction” coming from the north in the future through Ezekiel’s eyes.
    Further on, during the exiles of Israel, Daniel comes to tell us how the nations of Media and Persia defeat Babylon and Nebuchadenezzar but are then dominated by the 1 horned into 4 horned goat who breeds the King of the north bloodline which becomes Christianity through Rome and Caesar adopting it as the national religion as a means to bring the regional populace under unified control. Pompey, Julius’s rival became the king of the south as he chose to assimilate into the Arab, Muslim world. This battle still persists this very day. And our Father’s message is still the same.
    The exiles were exiled because they broke the Almighty’s covenant. Almost every time the Almighty punished, it was initiated by people worshiping idols of men who became gods in different fashions and symbols that woodworkers and smiths made from wood iron and rock. Those nailed to the wall that cannot actually save themselves to even get down from the wall because they are really nothing but some trinket the people believed in for the love of a myth.

  19. Chetak says:

    I mean no disrespect but please understand that the pagan/ Gregorian calendar has no relation to the Biblical calendar. So your argument is meaningless. Given the facts discribed in the Testaments that Yeshua’s birth took place in a sukkah (tabernacle), it can easily be shown that Messiah’s birth day is the 15th day of the seventh month on GOD’s calendar. This is, of course, a Holy Day on the Biblical calendar, meant for a Holy King. All this other stuff dealing with pagan reckoning of time is fiction.

  20. Wendy says:

    Me thinks you all need to be reading the old scriptures. all in context and see the overall picture. YHWH gives us His Holy Days and tells us not to add to them nor take away. (This is in the old and new scriptures)
    There are numerous ancient gods and men gods that have the same story of Xmas. I recommend “16 Crucified Saviours” . It is available online.
    However, those wanting to keep the Day will continue doing so, regardless of how YHWH asks us to live. That is human nature. Only when He opens eyes to truth will people see. So I say keep doing what you are doing and let the Creator of all things be the final judge. Maybe you will have a moment to reflect on choices you made as to whether Xmas was worth it or not.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      Very well said, Wendy. You’re right, of course. Unless God opens the eyes ~ the rest is moot.

      But, I ‘do’ remember being ‘psyched’ for Christmas literally, all year. (Pre-salvation days) and after I’d run around looking for all the gifts I possibly could find… and perhaps even a few more… all I remember is saying: “Is THAT all there is…?” And, with that grand thought, I waited yet another 365 days.

      My heart-ache comes when I see men such as Cris Putnam, a brother who I held in high regard, not even MENTION scripture. Not ONE Bible reference, nope. Not one. And, there are those whose comments really DO sound like ‘sheep’ (I work with the 4 legged kind) and believe me, Wendy. They aren’t smart, either. They are just ‘easily led’. So, I’m reading great comments and praying for us all.

      Cindy Thorpe

  21. Jon says:

    Christmas before it was called Christmas was a holiday dedicated to the sun god, rather than the Son of God. It started in Babel under Nimrod and his wife/mother Semiramis. The belief among pagans was that the sun god “died” on Dec 22 every year, but began “rebirth” three days later on the 25th, so the start of that rebirth (reincarnation) was celebrated at this time by numerous pagan nations after the flood, unto this day. My fellow Christians get so defensive about this when it’s brought up, and as a result, when they look at a passage such as Jeremiah 10, which is stating the obvious, they’re willing to downplay such warnings given directly by God to justify themselves and their willingness to remain worldly. What Jeremiah 10 reveals more than anything else is that God’s people did not obey His Word somewhere along the way, and thought that plastering His face and name on a tradition He called “vanity” suddenly made it holy. One of the reasons we are living in the last days is because so much of the Church is unwilling to pull out of Babylon, and the world’s tumbling downhill into the abyss. Most mainstream churches prefer to be lukewarm and worldly, which is why so many churches are throwing out Genesis and embracing evolution as an explanation for origins. Or redefining marriage. Not believing or following God’s given Word is why Christians are in the position of lying to children about a father figure who has supernatural ability to know a child’s heart, then reveal to them at a certain age that he doesn’t exist and was a lie all along, and then wonder why they come back from college saying things like, “I don’t believe in Jesus any more than I believe in Santa or the Easter bunny!” Satan’s greatest weapon is getting us to doubt God’s Word. He used it to devastating effect on Eve, and is using the same strategy today, nothing’s changed.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      Jon. Thanks. You’re right about it all, sad to say.

      Also,think of that ‘Council of Trent’, place… where the catholic priests were discussing the ‘effects’ of the Reformation. The ONLY reason they came up with (finally, after MUCH debate, which sadly, is what’s happening here) to say that Martin Luther was WRONG was because……. They ‘still’ adhered to Sunday worship.

      Nowhere in scripture is Sunday worship endorsed. Nowhere. So, the catholic leadership said that since the ‘reformers’ were following their……….TRADITION………is the key word, rather than ‘Sola Scriptura’, just adhering to the Word of God from the Bible… their ’cause’ was pure rebellion against ‘papal’ authority, rather than a ‘just cause’.

      They’re PROUD of this point. It’s very clear in their documentation, too. So, it goes to show us that when Christians adhere to this ‘holi-day’ because the leadership in that bankrupt institution (they ‘coined’ the word: ‘Christ Mass’) that all Christians (who are NOT Bereans) just keep following their church structure. It’s so sad, Jon.

      Do you ‘also’ see that any heart-felt genuine concern in comments, come from Bible-following Christians? Folks who know and stand on the Word of God are defamed and called nasty names… Oh well. At least you, Paul, Piper, others and I are just doing as The Word tells us to… To stand for Truth in the Love of Christ Jesus, regardless of their traditions.

      God bless you, kiddo.

      Cindy Thorpe
      Kingston, SE, South Australia

  22. Ray says:

    Life begins at conception. That’s the miracle if satan can convince us the the birth was the miracle he can deceive millions that a child isn’t a child until it’s born and thus it’s ok to murder he or she. We are all on a journey and I praise Yahweh that he would use any of our ignorance for his Glory. I can tell you so many times in my own life I would have sworn I had it right only to discover how wrong I really was.

  23. Ralph says:

    What kind of person would tell folks to challenge someone hoping they don’t have the facts to back up their position.pretty lame!!!

  24. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    Lastly, Cris. This topic really ‘fires me up’ because this is NOT the time to be assuaging one’s feelings regarding the blending of ‘supposedly celebrating Jesus’s birth’ with pure Paganism.

    You of all persons should see that if followers of Christ Jesus were this ‘provoked’ about any other issue or commandment that He gave us ~ then……….. we’d have a MUCH different world than that of today, wouldn’t we…?

    This is PURELY ‘straining a gnat and swallowing a camel’ kinda business… with people who only want to do ‘the santa/satan-thing and mix it with Jesus. It DOESN’T mix, my friends. Nope. It doesn’t.

    Why do we insist on continuing to stand for stuff that is NOT scriptural??? Okay, Cris. SHOW me where your words line up with Scripture. This is inane and whatever your thoughts were, they weren’t right, my Brother.

    Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
    Happy Christian following God’s Word and no other man’s

    • Paul says:

      Amen, thank-you Cynthia!

      More and more Christians are waking up and re-grounding themselves in God’s Word and not the traditions of men, chief of which being the popish Christ-mass and Ishtar. The world hates Jesus but loves Christmas — what does that tell you about it? Certainly that it has nothing to do with the Gospel; that is, repentance and belief in Christ unto salvation.

      No Scriptural warrant, no historical warrant, no Apostolic institution, no early church institution, pagan Romanist mandate, paganism throughout ALL the traditions, equating Jesus with pagan rites, uninspired hymns written by Unitarians, adding to God’s Word, worshiping according to man’s ways and not His. Not just mirroring the world, but fully being a part of and reveling in it. This is NOT Christian no matter what Romish humanist twisting and contrived apologetic is put forth. Come out of her, my people!

      But the even bigger issue — favoring traditions of men to abandon Sola Scriptura, and anything goes. If not the Bible, what is our authority? Who gives anyone the right to add to or take away from what God has ordained? Who declares how we are to worship God and who ordains the holy days? Who is the master?? Let God be true but every man a liar.

      • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

        Paul…???!!! I’ve been reading your posts that are FLOWING into my email box… and, I’m ‘almost crying’, I truly am. Your words are so, so, so TRUTH-FILLED and ‘direct’ and ‘to the point’! (Truly, I could hardly keep reading at first, ’cause I was so filled with JOY, it was hard to keep reading the next line! :-))

        YES! I do ‘see’ that as the time grows even more short ~ that many ‘are’ being turned back to God’s Holy Word. (Praise Jesus!)

        And, when you said: “They HATE Jesus… and LOVE Christmas”……..well, my Brother, I couldn’t have said it better in a thousand years. Thank you. Please email me ‘somehow’. Maybe ask Cris how to find my email address. I need to read your words ~ because they truly INSPIRE me.

        Thank You with all of my heart. See you when we ‘meet at His Glorious Feet’, as it were.
        Your sis’ in Christ Jesus ~
        Cindy Thorpe

  25. Jen says:

    Why not trust in our Lord? What other sources does man need? The facts are, in the Old Testament mention is made of idolatry related to decorating wood, gifts under green trees. Customs of old have celebrated bringing in the ouside during winter. But of course we can look further and see that all known sun-deities were ‘born’ on December the 25th..Mithra, Krishna (Vishnu), Osiris, Horus, Hercules, Dionysus (Bacchus), Tammuz, Indra, Jesus Christ, Buddha as well as the Scandinavian goddesses. See: Aryan Sun Myths, The Origins of Religion – S.E. Titcombe. … Saturnalia, is the week-long pagan festival of the winter solstice which began on December 17th to the 25th. Which of course is also known worldwide as the winter solstice. Behind Pagan deity worship is Satan. For thousands of years, the solstice is by account Satan’s birthday. Deciving man causing them to worship the sun. (The most important day for a satan worshipper is their birthday.)
    Nimrod was the founder of the Babylonian system. He was known as the god of the Chaldean Mysteries deified as Saturn. His birthday was celebrated on Dec. 25th, aka Saturnalia. Knowing this, why would God Himself want you to celebrate His birthday surrounded by all this pagan practice? Is man that strong to resist?
    Keeping it more simple, the fact that there is confusion ( who fathered confusion? ).. regarding His birthday, and whether or not to celebrate it, is self explanatory, when it is not in His birth that we are saved but His death… A day there is no confusion about!
    So if Christ was born on the 25th, it was only to claim authority over Satan and pagan deities and to abolish the practice altogether. Amen

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU.

      Now, since Truth has been spread, the Holy Spirit will do ‘the watering’.

      Amen and Amen to your words, Jen.

  26. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    Some of these comments that I’m reading are so inane, that I’m finding it tough to even believe any of you are true followers of Jesus. I’m so serious that it really has me shaken to my core; to my very heart.

    We’re to follow Jesus Christ. Yet, you’re saying that we ‘need to’ somehow give Him a ‘Happy Birthday Party’ each year during Pagan Festival times…

    Next thing, one of you will put forward that they ‘used to’ celebrate by throwing Him a huge party where He got no gifts… but, rather… was hung on a cross, for all His trouble….

    What is it? Do you REALLY want to keep Jesus ‘in His manger’? Or, would you rather embrace Him (as He saved me, as fully God and fully man.) If He stayed ‘a baby in the manger’ He’d’ve never been able to save me.

    Plain an’ Simple.
    Supposed ‘Christ-ians’ have now completely ‘lost the plot’ as the Aussie’s say over here.
    And, I DON’T wanna hear what He’ll have to say about your hanging on to your ‘traditions’ when you could’ve embraced The Truth, His Truth, instead.

    Wowie Zowie. My 4 year old son put it ‘all together’ for himself (he was saved very early… and NOT by my efforts, at all, praise Jesus.) when he drew his conclusions about ‘Santa’ and ‘Jesus’, too.

    Do you REALLY want to know why kids don’t ‘trust’ their parents…? One of the MAJOR reasons is because of this petty crap. And, Yes. I do mean, crap. Pure poison derived from humans… rather than from God. Like is usual.

    • Paul says:

      Indeed, it’s the Romanists who cast the Messiah of God a helpless babe in a cradle and keep Him ever hung upon a cross while worshiping his mother as a goddess and sinless co-redemtrix. Instead of a glorious sacrificing redeeming spiritual Saviour he is a suckling infant Tammuz and emaciated defeated corpse, both represented by idols.

      Aside from Scripture, all roads lead back to Rome and ultimately Babylon.

      • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

        Amen and AMEN, Paul. And, if I can’t find your last ‘post’ where you just gave ‘scripture after scripture’ that you STOOD on in TRUTH, you truly must know that I’ve been blessed by reading your words ~ AND ~ God’s Word, as you well know ~ will NOT return to Himself (His ADULT self, may I reiterate!) void.

        God BLESS you. You don’t sound like some…..’Grinch’, you merely are a true man of GOD. Thank You.

  27. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    I’m ending my ‘Truth telling’ by presenting you all this link:

    http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas

    Try to read through it. The sol invictus part is good reading, as well. But, I’m NOT gonna school you all on ‘Sun’ days… ’cause I bet none of you worship on the Sabbath, do you…?

    Of course not. How ‘silly’ of me to think so. Just ’cause it’s part of the 10 Commandments… No biggie. Geesh.
    But, regardless, I’ll be praying for you all each time I see Pagan stuff… ’cause you’ve swallowed the Pagan proPAGANduh.

    God help you guys.

    Cindy (feeling passionately for your souls, as Jesus does for us all.)

  28. Kim says:

    Just finished reading about “the Roman church accommodating a considerable range of earlier cultural practices and absorbing them into an emerging Christian tradition. December 25 was selected as the birthday of Jesus, for it was associated with the winter solstice, the coming of more light and the birth or rebirth of various deities in pre-Christian European traditions” in my daughters AP World History book. And to those who argue its bringing Jesus to the world I would argue its doing just the opposite. Our culture celebrates materialism and drunkenness and debt and greed and envy. In my heart I hear Jesus say get the money-changers out of my temple. It seems to me even if you would choose to celebrate it you would keep it very simply and focus on Christ only. In all my studies I have never found a place where the Bible tells us to give gifts. I have seen giving to the poor and even then it seems to be encouraged to do so privately.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      Thank you, Kim. Your words gave me HOPE. Thanks.

      And, you don’t sound like some ‘grumpy’ sad gal, either. You just read your Bible and that’s more than I can see here, from others.

      God bless you, always ~ even during ‘this Pagan season’, ’cause Jesus is Lord of All. 🙂

  29. jaz says:

    Hey! Have a Kool yule everybody.

  30. MJ says:

    Yashua is GOD manifest in flesh, HE is TRUTH, HE is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow..He is infinite without beginning or end. So how then do we “celebrate” HIS beginning (birth) in HIS infinite self??

  31. aVoiceInTheWilderness says:

    Well Chris,

    Be sure to buy your christmas tree (phallic symbol) and deck it with silver and gold and place the balls on it ( do I need to tell you what those are?) Be sure to put a cross on it.. that will make it holy. Then take your gifts and get down down on your knees and place them under that phallic. Get your yule log out (you know what that is?) and place it on the fire, get under that mistletoe for your kiss and tell everyone that your doing it for Jesus.

    You are doing the same thing the people were doing in Ezekiel chapter 8.

  32. I have one word for you so called ‘scholars’; Saturnalia.

    The Mother of Harlots, defined what you call scholarship, when they destroyed ancient libraries as ‘pagan temples’, outlawed reason and created the Dark Ages. The Emperor Constantine turned Rome Christian, and this required ‘fixing’ the holidays, all of them. Or answer the question, what do eggs and rabbits have to do with ascension? Oh, never mind… I know its useless, your minds are taken by the Abomination that makes Desolate, set up in your Temple of God, your minds.
    The Bible is a good book, but you should get out more.
    The Revelation has come, the Knowledge and proof of God, that conquers The Mystery of God Doctrine of the Romans.

    And yes, I am Christian… a witness to The Light, a Heretic, not Orthodox.
    The Darkness is come, let the suffering and the harvest begin.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      You’re AMAZING, you ‘heretic’, you!!! (Yes. I know the definition of the word, and I too, will be using more ‘heretical’ comments in the future, as well.)

      Anyway, you’re truly ‘amazing’ and I live by Jesus’s Grace, and don’t make my Greek Orthodox Ishtar eggs, any longer either. And, you know what…? I almost joined a church out here in Australia ~ but, they preached Easter rather than Jesus, so… I was ‘outta there’ fast, Piper. All I did is ask (heretically, by the by) was… “So, are you going to share the Truth about certain……..Holi-days?” And, when the answer was: “Nope. Why?” I began fellowshipping at home with a few others till I could drive over an hour one way ~ to find a bit of Truth.

      Yes. I say, too ~ I see that the ‘darkness is come…, let the harvest begin’ and I’ll keep safe and happy in Christ Jesus by His Grace and His Promise of Psalm 91 while those who I ‘thought’ were brothers and sisters still await their secret rapture which scripture doesn’t preach either.

      Can’t WAIT for Truth to Come and Stay… and ‘in my flesh’, I’d really like to see the popish faces when they scatter at Jesus’s return. (I’ll pray to get over that one, if Jesus wants me to. :-))

      Cynthia Lauren Thorpe

  33. Bob says:

    Cynthia , this message is for you. Don’t bother praying because I can see that you are too self righteous and vain . Maybe God will forgive you for judging me. Write a book next time and maybe someone will read it. Merry Christmas!

  34. Nam Marine says:

    This date is NOT mentioned in the Bible. Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25th.

  35. Photonic says:

    The author is either stupid, an ignoramus or just playing mind games supporting his paganistic/satanic doctrines; his logic, rational and historical knowledge and understanding of God’s calendar are all absent. In the sixth month (seventh is when the feast of tabernacles is kept lev 23: 34, for seven days starting on the 15th and ending on the 22) refers to the sacred calendar not the roman calendar, which is around September/October in the roman calendar, the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary, and Elizabeth her cousin was already six months pregnant. Assuming Mary conceived very soon after by the Holy Spirit, that takes you to about say july-sept next year in the roman calendar, nowhere near December!!! simple innocent logic! December 25th is totally pagan/demonic doctrines and is the worship of the birth of Nimrod as Easter is the worship of his mother ester(easter) of Nimrods death. They were a counterfeit to Christ and His mother Mary, and that’s where the mother child doctrine came from, so worshiped by modern day main stream Christianity unfortunately. The black statue of Peter in the cathedral in Vatican city is actually Nimrod not the Apostle Peter. Nimrod’s mother was the actual author and originator of mystery babylon the great, the mother of harlots. When Nimrod died, she concocted the idea of the miraculous birth on the 25th of the rebirth of Nimrod; thus began Mystery Babylon the great and mother of harlots, which spread around the world in various forms under different names etc. Satan’s counterfeit to GOD’S plan of redemption for human kind.

    The scriptures command the Observance of the passover(PO) to commemorate the sacrifice of Jesus who payed the penalty of death for man’s sins; for the penalty of sin is death(eternal death), and nowhere does it say to observe His birth date. NT Christian only observed the PO for the first few hundred years, until the pagans came in over time and King Constantine converted to the primarily pagan christianity in the fourth century and brought in with him many pagan practices, including Sunday worship as well as Easter, chrismass (father chrismass and the tree (from pagan worship long before Christ, Isa 44: 13-20) was later added to the 25th worship festival) etc and made them basically law in cahoots with the now false christian mainstream church who wanted to please the emperor and his pagan followers (beginning of the religious mark of the beast). This pleased the pagans and more and more came in, meanwhile the true church of GOD fled into the wilderness for 1260 years, Rev 12: 6, as persecution and death grew for those not following the edict of the state backed by the now universal christian pagan church passing itself of as Christ’s true church, and growing unabated. GOD’S true church will once again flee to a place of protection and nourishing for three and a half years, Rev 12: 14-17, but satan then goes after those who stayed behind (were lukewarm etc but still part of the church) in the last days as the mark of the beast is once again enforced.

    To the author of the above article: get behind me Satan! and take all your lies and deceit with you. Laugh you may, but consider the end of your folly if you dare.

  36. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    Cris..? Do you see what ‘not standing on Scripture’ does when you write something as inflammatory as this ‘headline’?

    While I’m aware that you’re busy, rather than drawing on the Word of God to unite Christians at this time in our world’s history, you’ve alienated them.

    I ask that you check out the ‘examples’ of the comments we’ve all posted. You will find only two groups. One, those who look to the Bible and what it says, as the inspired Word of God ~ and ‘all the others’ who simply can’t. (Unfortunately, this article had you land in the 2nd group.)

    So, I ask you to find ‘time’ to write a 2nd article (and prayerfully, it’ll be posted on Steve’s web site) so we may all benefit from your further explanation, rather than to be thrust into a weird place where you begin your article by telling folks that belief and adherence to Scripture gives you the ability to call others ‘smarty pants pseudo-scholars’.

    Now that I even ‘see’ that ‘slam’ that you began your article with… I shouldn’t have even been led into commenting, because you ‘started’ this ‘edification’, as if YOU were the ‘smarty pants’, etc… and you didn’t even use the Word of God, as your starting point.

    Not good. Not well thought out, at all, insofar as Christian writing goes, Cris.

    Here’s prayin’ you don’t take my words as an ‘attack’. I respect you and I also understand that you’re human, as well. So am I. But, shouldn’t we make inroads into a discussion by presenting biblical facts, first and foremost?

    God bless you.

    Cindy Thorpe
    Christian American in Australia

  37. Charles says:

    doesn`t matter how things came about in the natural. if they are bringing worship to the god of this world, then he is happy.

    cris, you have to bring your greek intellect into subjection under your spiritual understanding, and understand that that is how the world works as well. eph6:12 spirit-soul-body

    ofcourse for derek, who understands dominionism, he should be wary of efforts trying to establish christian governance over worldly phenomena.

  38. Dave says:

    Cris,
    Please see if you can pull from your sources who started such an absurd idea that Our Lord died on the same day of His conception? This sounds like superstition to me, but I think it would be interesting to define who “they” are. We can debate this until the cows come home, but should we forget God’s purpose in the first place, of sending Jesus to us? The purpose was established thousands of years prior to the Crucifixion: it was to undo the damage done to Creation and mankind by Satan. God prepared mankind for this huge event by disclosing the Divine Appointments, convocations that were dress rehersals for events that Messiah would fulfill. THAT is why the birthdate of Jesus is so important, and whatever the reason behind establishing Dec. 25, it is a FALSE reason, pagan or NOT! I don’t understand why someone as educated and articulate as yourself would descend to such niggling points.

  39. Bets King says:

    There are two totally different people that are worshiped as Savior here. One was born on December 25th and he tells his followers that its ok to take things from other religions and incorporate it into his. The one Christ has a name that is even similar in sound to the old head of the gods, Zeus. The Christian church has turned its back on everything the Father and Creator told us about His ways. They have turned their backs on HIS FEASTS, including the seventh day of the week. And they have embraced all the days of the equinox feasts that the fallen angels claimed and promoted as their “birthdays”. Did u know the that highest feast day of the Lucifarians is the individual’s own birthday? Think about what we say about Lucifer and why he fell, over pride. Why wouldn’t he think the day of his birth was the most special day.

    The book of Enoch says that is was written for those that lived in the end of days. Finally they draw to us and thousands upon thousands look, see and understand it. But some can really see the truth and chose to walk in the way of it.

    If you cannot see that Christmas is a trick of the enemy to lull you into worshiping him and rejecting the Creator and His feasts, then there is not anything I can say or do to help you, but to pray. I do that everyday. I weep for the people that are so blinded to the truth that they want to tear apart Father Yah’s real people who teach truth as being His enemies.

    Chris, you have taken the mark of the Beast, and I am sorry to say you are not my brother. You have been marked just as it was in Jerusalem before Nebuchannezar came into the city. Now it is not a just man coming, but Father Yah’s REAL Messiah and Salvation the ONE TRUE ONE that said:

    ” IF YOU HAVE SEEN ME, YOU HAVE SEEN MY FATHER”

    The one that was born in a sukkot during the FEAST OF HIS TRUE FATHER.

    His wrath will be poured out on those who cannot let go of the twisted things of the enemies of Yah.

    I will continue to pray for you all.

    Bets King

    • Rebecca says:

      “The one Christ has a name that is even similar in sound to the old head of the gods, Zeus.” WOW! Never considered the connection before. Amazing! I’m going to start looking more closely. Already I have thought about the word Hebrew. Hmmmm. He brew. I’m thinking about beer. Brew. Beer. It’s adding up. I’ve been so blind. He brews beer.

      Something is coming to me now. It’s your name. Bets…..gambling. King. Position of authority. King of gambling?

      I am sorry for the sarcasm. But I don’t know of another way to help you and others see how, if we try hard enough, we can make all kinds of weird connections and apply them in ways never ever intended. I’m just asking you to see it from our perspective….reading into something that isn’t there.

      And know, that we pray for all of you too. We have been where you are.

  40. Jack J says:

    There are so many posts, I hope I am not restating something; however, Yeshua kept a lunar based calendar and His appointed times (Lev 23) which He gave to Moses were on that Hebraic calendar. He (Yeshua who is Eloheim) would have never taught His disciples to keep their feasts and festivals using the guide of a pagan sun god calendar. Daniel 9:27 told us that the evil one would cloud issues on these dates and appointed times by changing things. Then a day was evening to evening, now midnight to midnight: was a lunar based month, now its based on a solar month with pagan gods for their names; and we have been handed Easter to replace Passover……. Why can’t we just throw away our traditions?

    If Yeshua had kept Christmas with His disciples, which He spent 3 1/2 years with, wouldn’t it have been mentioned in the Gospels and Act? We see that Yeshua was in Jerusalem for Feast of Dedication (in John) but that is based on the Hebraic Calendar (lunar based) so trying to set that date to a pagan calendar is “mixing” which is Babylon.

  41. DAvid says:

    So it sounds like you are saying you don’t know the date of Jesus’s birth or death? So the Saturnalia evidence, if nothing else that the proximity to the solstice.cannot be dismissed either. Is it so critical to your argument that all others be uninformed, ++ whatever other attributes you are implying? Make your case and let people decide what is right.

  42. Ann says:

    Quoting ancient documents should be proof to me? Only if I believe the people who wrote them. And, I don’t.
    I fail to see how people deciding March 25th was the conception of Jesus proves that Dec. 25th was his birthday.
    C’mon on Chris… I expected better than this.

  43. Amanda says:

    Romans 14:5
    One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto The Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to The Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to The Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to The Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. 7. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself, 8. For whether we live, we live unto The Lord; and whether we die, we die unto The Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lords. 9. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and the living. 10. BUT WHY DOST THOU JUDGE THY BROTHER? OR WHY DOST THOU SET AT NOUGHT THY BROTHER? FOR WE SHLL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

  44. Paul says:

    “By the way, show me the perfect church. I’d like to look at the website of the perfect church.”

    Fallacy of perfection and a red herring. The real issue again is, show Scriptural support for the ordaining of a holy day for the birth of Christ and the command to observe it, but no-one has done so. If it cannot be shown, then simply admit that Christmas is an invention of man and extra-Biblical, and thereby it is NOT commanded by God as the way to worship Him and is idolatry. If Scripture alone is insufficient and 2 Timothy 3:16,17 is denied, then we are back on the Road to Rome where man can ordain and institute how we worship God.

    Once again — what is your authority?

    • Rebecca says:

      Christmas is not an invention. It is a reaction to a miracle. It is reason to celebrate. It is a reason to rejoice. It is a reason to praise and worship Him. My authority is Christ. He gives me the freedom and liberty to celebrate Him and Him alone. He is King and no other should trample on His gifts of mercy, grace, faith and righteousness. He knows my heart. He knows my every thought. And I am free.

      Galatians 5:1 says, “For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. ”

      Let’s break that verse down.

      1. “For freedom Christ has set us free”. Free from what? From the Law that was the result of our sin. The Law was
      the penalty, it was a curse put on the sinner who tried unsuccessfully to achieve his own righteousness.
      2. “Stand firm”, meaning stay the course because of the benefits for being free from the Law and the flesh as
      a way to salvation. Be still and enjoy the fullness of blessing by grace and grace alone.
      3. Do not submit or subject as some translations have it. Referring to suppression or burden. Burden of what?
      4. A yoke of slavery. The Jews thought the yoke of the Law was a good thing, the essence of true religion. Paul
      said it was a yoke of slavery. It was a burden.

      There are no scriptures that say Christmas is wrong. There are no scriptures that even allude to Christmas being wrong. There are no scriptures that claim pagans have authority over what God has set free and made clean.

      Now, let’s talk about what scripture does tell us. It is very dangerous to choose to put oneself back under The Law.

      1 John2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.” Verse 18 refers to them as antichrists. They are false teachers. They are deceivers. They arise from within the church and depart taking many with them. Consider this as well. That verse speaks to the doctrine of perseverance of the saints as well. Those genuinely born again ENDURE in faith and fellowship and truth.(1Cor 11:19, 2 Timothy 2:12)

      Now this is critical so pay close attention. The TEST. The ultimate test of true Christianity is endurance. (Mark 13:13, Hebrews 3:14) Two characteristics mark genuine Christians in contrasts to antichrists. One, Christians have the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit guards us from errors. Acts 10:38, 2 Cor 1:21 The Holy Spirit guards us from deception.

      Two, The Holy Spirit guides the believer into knowing “all things”. John 14:16, John 16:13. Christians have a built in radar that equips us to know truth. Those who remain in heresy and apostasy were never genuinely born again. John 2:19

      Now those are some serious biblical words. Those are God breathed words. Trying to find scripture to ascribe paganism to Christmas pales in comparison to the verses above. If I were going to worry, I’d worry about that. How offensive must it be to our Lord when some turn back to the very Law from which He rescued us?

      John 6:60-71, tell of the reactions of Jesus’ disciples to His sermon on the “bread of life”. Just like in Jerusalem before and in Galilee, many disciples did not believe. However, the true disciples believed. John lists 2 groups and their reactions. Group one, the false disciples, the unbelieving. Group two, the true disciples of belief.

      After that sermon, only a very small group of disciples remained. Turn your eyes forward, not behind. Turn your eyes upon Jesus. Look full in His wonderful face. And the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace. Glory and grace, not legalism.

      My authority is Christ who gives me freedom from the law and freedom to celebrate His miracle birth.

  45. Jennifer says:

    See, this is what gets me. You want proof that the xmess tree and even the date is Pagan in origin, but that’s a straw man argument because, where in the BIBLE does it tell us to celebrate Christ’s birth at all, and where, especially, does it say using a tree to worship Christ is even considered?? For argument’s sake, let’s say xmess is not pagan in origin, but because it can’t be found in the Bible, we can’t, with a straight face, say it’s Christian in origin either! If it isn’t of Christ, given to us from Christ, then where does it come from? From MAN! And are we to respect the traditions of man over Christ? NO! But so many people are so used to listening to others that they simply will not think about this on their own. For me, it all boils down to this one verse: John 4:24: God is a spirit, and those who worship him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. If, in xmess, there can be found so much as one lie (or untruth if it makes you feel better), then it is forbidden as a form of worship. End of story, it’s as simple as that and none of these other arguments even matter. So we can argue that xmess isn’t pagan all day long…ok, fine, maybe it is and maybe it isn’t. But show me where it is Christian (found in God’s Word, not church history) and then maybe someone can sway me. But not until then. For some things in the Christian life maybe we can say God is not clear on what we should do, but when it comes to worship, He is always crystal clear and to ignore that is to ignore God and follow after the traditions of men.

  46. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    I got over 10 comments in my email box this morning. I read each one of them. I know that those who posted them are sincere, and I read them with an ‘open mind/spirit’ (and a ‘guarded heart’, as the Bible says we’re to).

    Those who will not go to Scripture (and not obtuse texts from it, either) to bring forth their point of view, are doomed to be stuck with no light in the abyss of circular human logic. Plain an’ simple. No ‘rocket science’ necessary, because God made His Word to be CLEAR to His kids. (Paul didn’t ‘impress’ others with his LOGIC, but, rather, he said: “…my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power…”

    We’re NOT to rely on mere human words from either men OR women. We’re to do the Berean-thing and go to the Word of God to ‘settle’ arguments between us. Again, this is plain and simple.

    I find that many who are ‘countering’ my assertion that there is NO PLACE in the Word of God that says we’re to worship alongside Pagans’ (and just check out ‘where’ Pagans ARE at this time of year, ladies and gentlemen… Because they are in their ‘groves’ doing their witchcrafty/manipulative crud in order to ensnare other naive souls) sound VERY ‘Romanish’. I say that ‘deliberately’ because when a man or woman (Eastern Star, whatever) doesn’t have the Word of God within them, they deliberately LIE and OBFUSCATE issues rather than to merely ‘speak the Truth out of a loving heart devoted to Christ Jesus.

    Do we need to go into truly ENDLESS accounts of how ‘catholic’ documents were ‘created’ in the dark ages, by puny popish people…? We don’t HAVE to go there, do we? Please don’t tell me that the lessons learned by those in Mormonism… (fictitious creation of documents) weren’t learned ‘at the knee’ of Free Masons that were schooled by little Jesuit guys and gals… DON’T ‘GO’ THERE. Let’s NOT. ‘Cause there is SUBSTANTIAL ‘causative’ effect rather than mere correlative ‘coincidence’.(… to coin a term that Cris has bandied about.)

    The real crux of the matter is this. (And, Yes. I prayed about this issue last night and the Holy Spirit has given me the verse that all this hinges upon. Wanna read it? Here you go:)

    John 3:19 KJV “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

    THIS WAS ‘SPOKEN’ BY CHRIST JESUS, HIMSELF…AND HE ‘STILL’ STANDS BY HIS WORDS.

    I am NOT saying that anyone is purely ‘evil’… BUT, I am stating unequivocally that ALL OF US have a propensity to choose ‘darkness’ rather than the light that Jesus and His Bible provides. Yes. We are all ‘free to choose’, but only because GOD, HIMSELF has given us that ability. Satan takes that ‘choice’ away and one of his favorite means of accomplishing this is by the secret societies that are run by the black popish dude and his nefarious jesuits. (I have enjoyed how the Holy Spirit ‘coined’ that they are merely ‘Jesus-suits’… An appearance of ‘goodness’ with pure rot and contempt for Jesus, Himself ~ underneath their veneer.

    May Jesus’s Dear Holy Spirit continue to water the Words of His Truth that have been typed on these internet pages. Amen and Amen.

  47. I think you will see very clearly if you follow the Link below that Jesus was born in December, God’s wisdom, not man’s fleshy understanding is needed to know His Truth in all things.

    Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

    Jesus Birthdate – https://freedomborn.wordpress.com/2013/01/12/jesus-christ-gods-great-gift-to-us/

    Christian Love in Christ Jesus – Anne