Christmas on December 25th is not from Paganism!

dec 25If you frequent social media, then you’ve probably been inundated with smarty pants pseudo scholars calling Christmas a “pagan holiday.” These under-informed accusers believe they have the goods with bold claims like Christmas trees are forbidden in Jeremiah 10 (a passage about the manufacture of Canaanite idols) and that the date of December 25th was adopted from the pagan holiday of Saturnalia (actually December 17th).

The best way to respond to these claims is to ask them what evidence they have (from source documents). Most of the time this question will cause them to change the subject or elicit the chirping of crickets.  The truth is most of the claims are dubious and have no actual evidence.  Even if there were other holidays on the same date, it does not mean that they were even aware of each other. Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. The leaps in logic are prohibitive and there is no source claiming the Christians appropriated pagan days until the 12th century!

In the real world. reputable ancient source documents lay waste to the popular pagan origins theory concerning December 25. Biblical Archaeology Review is a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars. The article How December 25 Became Christmas provides ample evidence debunking the pagan origins myth, showing how it actually began, and even demonstrating how 12-5 was decided to be the date of Jesus’s birth. This dates back to the second century ( I challenge pagan theorists to antedate it).

Around 200 C.E. Tertullian of Carthage reported the calculation that the 14th of Nisan (the day of the crucifixion according to the Gospel of John) in the year Jesus diedc was equivalent to March 25 in the Roman (solar) calendar. March 25 is, of course, nine months before December 25; it was later recognized as the Feast of the Annunciation—the commemoration of Jesus’ conception. Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.[1]

Of course, I am a nerd with Logos Bible Software and a searchable database of ancient documents including Tertullian. I verified the claim from the original source documents, Tertullian wrote:

And the suffering of this “extermination” was perfected within the times of the lxx hebdomads, under Tiberius Cæsar, in the consulate of Rubellius Geminus and Fufius Geminus, in the month of March, at the times of the passover, on the eighth day before the calends of April (March 25)[2]

The belief was that he died on the same day he was conceived. They believed the conception was on March 25 which became the Feast of the Annunciation, commemorating the angel’s appearance to Mary:  “In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth” (Luke 1:26) This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes from fourth-century North Africa:

“Therefore our Lord was conceived on the eighth of the kalends of April in the month of March [March 25], which is the day of the passion of the Lord and of his conception. For on that day he was conceived on the same he suffered.” [3]

The rationale was innocent enough, just add nine months to date of conception to determine when He was born and it lands on December 25th.  It’s that simple. Paganism had absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

Note:  Due to so may folks missing the point, I do not think Jesus was born on Dec 25th; the point of this post is that the early church did not chose the date based on a pagan holiday but rather when they assumed he was conceived (mistaken or not).

 

[1]Andrew McGowan, “How  December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014  http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/#location1

[2] Tertullian, “An Answer to the Jews,” in Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, trans. S. Thelwall, vol. 3, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 160.

[3] De solstitia et aequinoctia conceptionis et nativitatis domini nostri iesu christi et iohannis baptista  as cited by Andrew McGowan, “How  December 25th Became Christmas ” Biblical Archeology Review, 08/12/2014  http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/new-testament/how-december-25-became-christmas/#note11 

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. Erik says:

    Were 2nd century romans unaware that the human gestation period is actually 38 weeks, not 9 months? If so, why wouldn’t the birthday be celebrated on Dec.16 of the Roman calendar?

  2. Don says:

    This whole Christ-mass thing has very deep emotional ties for most people. They will hold on to it with every ounce of strength they can muster. This holiday is what some would call a stronghold. Whether or not it is a pagan holiday stamped with a Jesus sticker I cannot personally prove. However, there is not a thread of scripture to compel me to celebrate it. If Cris Putman’s source documents comes from an overpriced software package that the average person cannot legally use due to its out of reach pricing this whole article is questionable at best.

  3. C. Smith says:

    Birth generally happens 40 weeks after conception. That’s 4 weeks more than 9 months.

  4. btruth says:

    You’re an amazing brother in Christ. I’ve been blessed by your work. Regarding this particular topic, I think that there’s more to it than your brilliant, but quick & leaned down summation. “We” as the Body of Christ, should revere our Lord Jesus everyday. “government sanctioned holiday’s” just scream pagan to me, for many reasons. For one, this “government” is satanic, so I wouldn’t (& don’t) follow or support anything that they have a hand in. Secondly, because the majority of humans are godless, Cainnites, the day of “Christmas” only becomes one of many powerful distractions, hindrances, worldly traditions & all around supporting materialism & sinful nature. & that’s not even mentioning the meaning of the YULE LOG, or the EVERGREEN TREE ad naseum. I only celebrate it, because I don’t want to cause strife in my marriage & I choose my battles wisely (technically I don’t celebrate any man made holiday’s, I’m just present, with many willfully ignorant humans. I celebrate my walk with Jesus Christ & His Glory every day). I just thought we needed some more personal input on this topic. Thank you for discussing it. God bless you & yours. Shalom

  5. Chuckles says:

    132 posts in about 24 hours? That must be some kind of record!

    I remember this subject coming up last year when Cris posted a similar article on Christmas trees. Looks like the subject of “Christmas: To Celebrate, or Not?” is as controversial–and unsettled–as ever.

    Just one thing I’d like to point out:

    Many on the anti-Christmas side have posted the fact that there is no commandment in Scripture for us to celebrate Christ’s birth or conception. True enough. But I don’t see where any on the pro-Christmas side are arguing for any such commandment. It’s “may we”, or at most, “should we”, not “must we celebrate…etc.”

    On the other hand, is there any prohibition in Scripture against celebrating the Lord’s birth or conception? I don’t see where there is (questionable references aside). And if there is not, any argument against such celebration–whatever it’s called–that relies on that argument from silence is without support.

    If we could get the “either/or” basis of this discussion recognized accurately, by both sides, there might be a lot more light and less heat in this thread. Just sayin’.

    Nope, I haven’t settled the issue for myself. The plethora of yet more new info posted here gives me another pile of scholarship to rifle through. I’m sure to be well into 2015 before coming to a conclusion (if I ever do).

    Lord Jesus, come quickly!

  6. (Another) Paul says:

    From your article, Cris:

    In the real world. reputable ancient source documents lay waste to the popular pagan origins theory concerning December 25. Biblical Archaeology Review is a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars. The article How December 25 Became Christmas provides ample evidence debunking the pagan origins myth

    …Well, I went and read the linked article and didn’t really find “ample evidence”. In fact, this is what I found:

    almost 300 years after Jesus was born, we finally find people observing his birth in mid-winter.

    And we see a common thread develop in the article…

    in the first few centuries C.E., the persecuted Christian minority was greatly concerned with distancing itself from the larger, public pagan religious observances, such as sacrifices, games and holidays. This was still true as late as the violent persecutions of the Christians conducted by the Roman emperor Diocletian between 303 and 312 C.E.

    This would change only after Constantine converted to Christianity. From the mid-fourth century on, we do find Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals.

    The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus’ birthday comes from a mid-fourth-century Roman almanac

    Thus, Jesus was believed to have been conceived and crucified on the same day of the year. Exactly nine months later, Jesus was born, on December 25.

    This idea appears in an anonymous Christian treatise titled On Solstices and Equinoxes, which appears to come from fourth-century North Africa.

    Augustine, too, was familiar with this association. In On the Trinity (c. 399–419) [i.e. late 4th century, early fifth] he writes…

    In the East, too, we have evidence that April was associated with Jesus’ conception and crucifixion. Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis writes that on April 6, “The lamb was shut up in the spotless womb of the holy virgin, he who took away and takes away in perpetual sacrifice the sins of the world.”

    Quick bio of Epiphanius (courtesy of Wikipedia):

    Epiphanius of Salamis (Greek: Ἐπιφάνιος; between 310–320 – 403) was bishop of Salamis, Cyprus at the end of the 4th century.

    Connecting Jesus’ conception and death in this way will certainly seem odd to modern readers, but it reflects ancient and medieval understandings of the whole of salvation being bound up together.

    …Or a subtle post-hoc means of justifying the celebration of the big pagan winter bash in Christian guise.

    Tertullian and the early Christians were the ones who connected the Crucifixion with Passover — which makes perfect sense from the Scriptures themselves, since Christ is our Passover lamb — but it wasn’t until much later that this novel idea of connecting his conception with his death emerges. It’s not beyond the wit of man to retrofit a Christianised pagan festival with an alibi.

    Continuing from the linked article…

    The notion that creation and redemption should occur at the same time of year is also reflected in ancient Jewish tradition, recorded in the Talmud. The Babylonian Talmud preserves a dispute between two early-second-century C.E. rabbis who share this view, but disagree on the date: Rabbi Eliezer states: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born; on Passover Isaac was born … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come.” (The other rabbi, Joshua, dates these same events to the following month, Tishri.) Thus, the dates of Christmas and Epiphany may well have resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies: Jesus would have been conceived on the same date he died, and born nine months later.

    That doesn’t even make sense. (…And this from “a serious journal respected by real biblical scholars”?) Look at that paragraph again: “In Nisan the world was created; in Nisan the Patriarchs were born [N.B.: born, NOT conceived]; on Passover Isaac was born [born, NOT conceived] … and in Nisan they [our ancestors] will be redeemed in time to come” (a really lovely and unintentional foreshadowing of Christ, by the way!) — had the date of Christmas “resulted from Christian theological reflection on such chronologies”, then surely Jesus Himself would have been born in Nisan. …Not conceived in Nisan.

    Is it not at least suggestive that this conception-on-March-25 idea springs up all over the place in the fourth century, after Constantine’s conversion, and at the time when (as the author states) “we do find Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing pagan festivals”?

    The matter is clearly not as cut and dried as the title of this post makes it out to be. …Heck, even the writer of the linked article doesn’t go as far as you do, Cris! Look what he says:

    In the end we are left with a question: How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure.

    …And bear in mind that the article was penned by an Anglican priest, dean of an Episcopalian seminary at Yale. He’s about as likely to link Christmas with paganism as a Catholic would be! And as a point of principle, is scholarship the new infallibility, Cris? Ivy League universities are full of people with more degrees than you’ll ever have (both Catholic and Anglican), who publish in the most prestigious peer-reviewed journals and who can argue you into a cocked hat — but they’re theological liberals who don’t believe the Bible. Should we really set such store by them? If you believe the Bible (and I believe that you do, Cris), then you have more going for you than the lot of them.

    When I saw the title, with that bald claim, “Christmas on December 25th is not from Paganism!”, I knew that you couldn’t possibly back that up.

    …But then I’ve a feeling that this wasn’t your main intention. 140 comments and rising… 😉

    Season’s greetings to you, anyway…

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Paul what you have composed here is fine example of a logical fallacy known as “argument from personal incredulity” Merry Christmas.

      • mark says:

        This is the reason for the season…..Jesus
        Some of my comments were erased… Hmmm.
        Your motives in posting this article are questionable and most of this stuff is traditions and hearsay. Anybody can read from software but where is your own personal revelation?
        The reason for the season is in plain sight, so why throw up a smokescreen to cast doubt in people?
        Read with understanding and know these dates are locked in. You will find why I choose the
        second ministration , 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

        “THE COURSE OF ABIA” (Luke 1:5 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

        This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration in the Temple (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and occurred, as did the others, twice in the year.

        The “Courses” were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Appendix 51. 5). This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the “Great Day of the Feast” (John 7:37 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), and was a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

        The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia or Abijah (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

        Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the three Great Feasts, the dates for the two yearly “ministrations” of Abiah will be seen to fall as follows:

        The first 9 ministration was from 12-18 Chisleu = December 6-12.

        The second ministration was from 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

        The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conception of John the Baptist took place between 12-18 SIVAN (June 13-19), in the year 5 B.C. After finishing his “ministration”, the aged priest “departed to his own house” (Luke 1:23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ), which was in a city10 in “the hill country” of Juda (verse 39).

        The day following the end of the “Course of Abia” being a Sabbath (Sivan 19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.

        The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a couple of days at least. He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21st or 22nd. This leaves ample time for the miraculous “conception” of Elizabeth to take place on or about 23rd of SIVAN 11 – which would correspond to June 23-24 of that year. The fact of the conception and its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards, and hence the 23rd SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conception of John Baptist as the 1st TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.

        But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliterated the real dates of our Lord’s “Begetting” and Birth, were also at work with regard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results. As soon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its proper date, videlicet: the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from the Pagan Calendars substituted for it (videlicet: December 25), then everything else had to be altered too.

        Hence “Lady Day” in association with March 25 (new style) became necessarily connected with the Annunciation. And June 24 made its appearance, as it still is in our Calendar, as the date of “the Nativity of John the Baptist”, instead of, as it really is, the date of his miraculous conception.

        The Four “Quarter Days” may therefore be set forth thus: first in the chronological order of the events with which they are associated, videlicet:

        The conception of John Baptist on or about 23rd SIVAN = June 24 in the year 5 B.C.
        The Gennesis (Begetting) of our Lord on or about 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
        The birth of John Baptist on or about 4th-7th NISAN = March 25-28 in the year 4 B.C.
        The birth of our Lord on or about 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

        or, placing the two sets together naturally:-

        {The conception of John 23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] rd SIVAN = June 23-24 in the year 5 B.C.
        {The birth of John 7 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] th NISAN = March 28-29 in the year 4 B.C.
        {The Miraculous “Begetting” 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
        {The NATIVITY 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

      • (Another) Paul says:

        Cris said:

        Paul what you have composed here is fine example of a logical fallacy known as “argument from personal incredulity” Merry Christmas.

        Thank you, and same to you: I hope that you and your family had a blessed time.

        To the charge of “argument from personal incredulity”, I’d answer that my incredulity was not the substance of my argument, but merely the prompting to investigate your claim. And when I examined your own source, I found that it simply didn’t back up your assertions — and even its author didn’t dare go as far as the sensational title you put on your post. So the charge doesn’t stick.

        Before we leave the subject of logical fallacy, I would like to direct you to a couple myself — namely argumentum ad antiquitatem and argumentum ab auctoritate. …Particularly the latter, as it’s something to which you appear to be susceptible — your writing is infused with appeals to the authority of lettered men. Where in Scripture are we called to do such things? What is Christ’s attitude (or David’s or Peter’s or John’s or indeed Paul’s) to academic prestige? For what does Christ praise God in Matthew 11:25? Peer-review & PhDs? I’m no misologist, but God’s way is very different from man’s, and we forget that at our peril.

        I’m also beginning to be struck by how very attached you clearly are to Christmas (given the vigour with which you defend it). I first started to notice it last year with your assertion that Christmas trees have no pagan associations (which again you couldn’t really back up), and now you’re banging the same pro-Christmas drum again. I do wonder whether the folks here who say that this attachment constitutes an idol might have a point.

        Or as I noted before, it could merely be shrewdness on your part — I see there’s been several dozen more comments since my last post!

        • (Another) Paul says:

          Apologies for the double-post: please remove the earlier one (i.e. the one which was unfinished and incorrectly formatted — its date-stamp is “12/27/2014 at 7:33 am”), along with this note.

      • (Another) Paul says:

        Cris said:

        Paul what you have composed here is fine example of a logical fallacy known as “argument from personal incredulity” Merry Christmas.

        Thank you: I hope that you and your family had as blessed a day as I did.

        To the charge of “argument from personal incredulity”, I’d answer that my incredulity was not the substance of my argument, but merely the prompting to investigate your claim. And when I examined your own source, I found that it simply didn’t back up your assertions — and even its author didn’t dare go as far as the sensational title you put on your post. So the charge doesn’t stick.

        Before we leave the subject of logical fallacy, I would like to direct you to a couple myself — namely argumentum ad antiquitatem and argumentum ab auctoritate. …Particularly the latter, as it’s something to which you appear to be susceptible — your writing is infused with appeals to the authority of lettered men. Where in Scripture are we called to do such things? What is Christ’s attitude (or David’s or Peter’s or John’s or indeed Paul’s) to academic prestige? For what does Christ praise God in Matthew 11:25? Peer-review & PhDs? I’m no misologist, but God’s way is very different from man’s, and we forget that at our peril.

        I’m also beginning to be struck by how very attached you clearly are to Christmas (given the vigour with which you defend it). I first started to notice this last year with your assertion that Christmas trees have no pagan associations (which again you couldn’t really back up), and now you’re flogging the same dead reindeer again. I do wonder whether the folks here who say that this attachment constitutes an idol might have a point. If one finds oneself passionately defending a tradition which is not even in Scripture — and doing so not against heathen but rather against other believers — surely it should at least give one pause?

        Or as I noted before, it could merely be shrewdness on your part — I see there’s been several dozen more comments since my last post!

        Anyway, enjoy the rest of the season…

        • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

          Thank you, Paul. And, while I am a woman (and out of the abundance of the heart, the fingers type…or, did I get that one wrong… ;-)) I thank God for men like you.

          Here. This is my ‘all of the seasons in which we find ourselves’, Gift to you. A short song by Rich Mullins, a gentleman and a brother who also spoke Words that go ‘straight to the heart’:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i10ePs8yeEc

          Cynthia (something about the moon, a huge dark rock when the light doesn’t shine on it) Lauren (courage) and, “Thorpe” which means ‘little village’. *While questioning if I had married the right guy one night, the Holy Spirit asked me ‘what my ‘names’ stood for. When I’d gotten to ‘Thorpe’, and explained what man said it meant ~ He interjected with: “And, ‘little village’ is exactly what I consider your world to be.”

          So much for the saying: “What’s in a name.” Huh?

          C.L. Thorpe… Laughing because Jesus even has Hillary Clinton coining his ‘fact’ about His ‘little village’ 🙂
          Yes. He uses all of us ~ regardless whether we humble ourselves to Him, or not, but ~ I will only genuflect to Him. No one else. I pray for all those others, and for myself, as well. And, I find that the Holy Bible is the best ‘wash cloth’ & ‘mirror’ with which Jesus carefully and ‘grace’fully, cleans this face of mine.

        • look2thesky says:

          (Another) Paul –

          Thank You!

          Cynthia Lauren –

          Thank You! (again)

          Both of your words, and the learning and insight you’ve shared here over the more than two weeks now that this thread has been running, has been most uplifting to me, as well as a reaffirmation of the truth of the matter shown to me so many years ago –
          Both of you have done well in keeping the “fallen nature” as you so aptly put it Paul, under wraps in your responses to some fairly indignant replies to the points you’ve made and the valid proofs you’ve given –

          “Methinks” there comes a time when the teaching to “shake off the dust from your sandals as a testimony against them” is the teaching that becomes necessary to follow in that to do otherwise proves to be a waste of time and effort – to waste seed on barren and rocky soil becomes just that – a waste –
          Besides, I have a feeling that Cris in his intellectual snobbishness (if I may be so blunt) is laughing at us anyway –
          I mean – we “just don’ get it”
          regardless of the overwhelming evidence that has been offered to the contrary –
          “The Division Bell” has sounded – “the two camps” as you put it earlier Cynithia are taking their respective stand –
          The best course of action in a situation such as this is to pray for the souls of our fellow man –
          as you both have pointed out numerous tiimes in earlier posts –

          I Thank You both again for your efforts, your sound words, and for sharing your insight and learning –

          I’ll close with something that “popped into my head” a few years back and pretty much sums up my view on the matter at hand –

          “Exercise in Absurdity”

          From what has been and is still ascertainable as fact
          It seems somewhat obvious to those who care to see
          The worldwide celebration of xmas
          Is no more than a pseudo, pagan futile exercise in absurdity
          Brought on by dark delusion

          But a great reason for mom to send you a $20.00 dollar check
          And to gorge yourself repeatedly over a short and somewhat surreal period of time
          With more food than some people see on earth in a lifetime
          While watching a once healthy tree, or part of a healthy tree
          Decay and die in front of your eyes
          Itself forced to wear a clown’s funeral shroud of tinsel and bulbs
          Only to become an unwanted nuisance
          Cursed and tossed into the stagnant valley of mankind’s misleading tradition

          The lie induced, almost indescribeable excitement we felt as children
          Can still be seen in the eyes of children today
          And is only outshown by the gleam in the eyes of the unholy merchant of death
          And his ongoing efforts to lead them astray –

          ASBandalos ’92

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Rather than posting here that I have found you to be one of THE most impactual persons that I’ve ever had the ‘distinct pleasure’ to ‘read’, as it were, ASBandalos’92 ~ because others will say that we are merely ‘slapping each other on the ‘legalistic back’, as if we were playing ‘nasty ping pong’, here…

            I’ll just leave it as ~ “I’ll talk to you tomorrow, my dear, dear brother. Because I ‘might’ be able to tell you, then ~ that when I just wanted to bless others by posting that ‘song’ that Rich Mullins wrote, to bless Paul and all the other ‘Christians’ out here…

            My COMMENT is awaiting ‘approval’ by the ‘moderator’. I posted it about an hour ago ~ and it’s STILL awaiting ‘moderation’ (hahaha, great word, there) ~ So, my few ‘innocuous’ words, still haven’t been posted.

            So, Yes. The ‘time’ for Jesus to be returning ‘is’ in fact, drawing near ~ because folks are ‘taking sides’.

            God bless you, kiddo. Talk to you tomorrow. (And, I saved this comment, and my other one, so that you might be able to ‘see for yourself’, exactly what I said. 😉 God ‘truly’ is in control, not any of us.

            Cynthia Lauren,
            Just praying for us all, and loving and respecting her two ‘new found’ brothers in Christ.Jesus.
            The very BEST of this ‘seasons’ greetings to you both, and to Matt, too ~ wherever that cutie pie is… 🙂

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      Paul… You had the strength to do what I could not. How I can be able to thank you for your time, and your diligence ~ AND your loving manner, combined brilliantly with wit and smiles, to boot… There are simply ‘no words’ that I can share that will adequately able to express my heart-felt thanks for each of your words and the quotes you provided, as well. (In short ~ You blessed my socks off. Thanks for that, Paul.)

      So, when I pondered what was written, I found two ‘highlights’ as it were.

      Firstly ~ ‘those of us who do not possess ‘accreditation’ (nor, do we chase after ‘degrees’ by men, for we merely search for HIS ‘degree’ that He gives us, daily ~ the Bread of Life, on which we amply feast, The Only Christ, Jesus of both Nazareth… and, Bethlehem, as well) often render ourselves in mealy-mouthed subjection (sorry, it’s just Truth) by those proporting to have ‘attained flouted degrees of intellect’. (ie: the Greek trap is what they fall head long, into (yes. as a result of valuing intellect over the Wisdom of God which even in it’s MOST foolish ~ surpasses man’s by eons… as it were.) So, rather than conjecture of humans ~ even ‘shrouded by’ the (egotistical, may I humbly add in Truth) cheap veneer of ‘Rocket Science’ and ‘intellect’ ~ finds itself bankrupted EVERY time ~ and it will continue to be shown as such. Devoid of both Wisdom (AND when we reject that gift from God, he withholds from us ‘so much more’…because we don’t ‘submit’ and ‘bow’ to God, Alone and what He’s done on our behalf ) AND Grace, my brother. It’s a sad fact, yet ~ it’s true. I obviously pray for Cris. I have ever since I was blessed by his writings. No biggie, in my book. That’s what I’m called to do ~ pray for other believers. But, I, as well ~ succumbed to Cris’s misleading title of this piece of his… and to be quite frank ~ ‘doubt’ entered my mind. It really did, and since I’m human, I ‘trusted’ Cris ~ rather than taking the time (*which I DO NOT have, by the way) to war against powers and principalities with the sword of the Spirit while simultaneously being smitten by emotionally driven words of bitter condemnation from those other ‘commenters’, here ~ WHILE I would ‘research’ just where Cris got his ‘all so ‘enlightening’ source info.. I just couldn’t do all three, so I ‘folded’, knew what I knew ~ and threw my cards into the pot without playing mind games any further. But, ‘Then there was Paul.’… And, I’m not talkin’ about our MUCH older brother, either. 😉 I’m talkin’ about Y.O.U. I’ve mulled this ‘crud’ over and over as I went through my days through the last several weeks… And, this site didn’t ‘bless me’ ~ it didn’t ‘draw me into a closer relationship with Christ Jesus ~ so, I ‘wrote it off’, as it were. But, then… ‘there was Him/and you, in Him, and now ~ today, Yes. on the 25th of December and ALWAYS ~ I stand corrected by your words…because I have learned from you to ‘both research AND endure’ rather than to fold like a cheap deck of cards. 😉 Sorry, but that’s what I eventually did. I ‘brushed my feet off, where I didn’t see the Peace that I give off to others ~ so, I just took my Peace back and walked away ~ till your ‘post’ came into my email box ~ that is. (Yours and Andrew’s and Matt’s, as well… my brothers, you have blessed me beyond belief.

      Secondarily, (See? I told yah (is that YAH…? ;-)) that I’m a woman… and ‘outta the abundance of the heart…’ kinda thing ;-))

      But, I DO see (…and it’s happening increasingly so) that ‘humans’ (all men and women, that is) are being ‘drawn’ into a WORSHIP of either man-made intellect ~ or, man-made emotive outbursts. It’s coming, my brother. It’s really coming… Just like Jesus told us it would…

      I can’t TELL you ‘how many times’ my happy lil’ stalwart Holy Spirit-infused little female self who always serves others in all my days ~ has been ‘unceremoniously smeared’ with the word: “Hater”. I mean… isn’t this Pure Spiritual Irony at it’s VERY BEST…? Do you not agreed…? This is truly ‘priceless’ ~ in that when one chooses to dump ‘self’ and ‘submit only to Christ Jesus’ ~ that we wind up in the ‘camp of the prophets’, sotospeak.

      Spit on (Yes, it’s happened to me, without any provocation on my part, AND praise Jesus, I kept my ‘cool’) Verbally bashed by ‘fellow believers’ who may have Jesus within their ‘car’, sotospeak ~ but, they are still demanding to keep the steering wheel TIGHTLY in their grasp… and Jesus ~ being ‘the’ Gentleman… will just keep on lettin’; them keep on… till they tire of driving or ~ get into a ‘fender bender’ and then cry out for His assistance…

      It’s happened to me. I know it well. I wrote a story called: ‘Bicycle Built for Two’ in which this gal loves to ride her bike ~ she takes a pretty serious ‘spill’ on a path, and as she finds herself ‘in the dust’, as it were ~ she’s flat on her stomach and staring at sandaled Feet.

      They talk ~ she laments her ‘ruined bike’, He pulls a ‘tandem one’ outta the bushes. She immediately goes for the front seat ~ even though she really likes Him to be there…just providing more ‘steam’ for her, if you will… But, she’s completely unaware of the ‘decidedly human’ trap of having Him guiding from the ‘back seat’ ~ rather than He leading her…

      Yeah. They ‘get into their spills’….she runs ‘head long into ditches’… but, she doesn’t have a ‘blind’ Guide. He gets her outta ‘jams’ all the time and afterwards… they just kick back and have a pretty good laugh about their ‘adventures’ and ‘misadventures’, too… He’s ‘so kind’. She’s so ‘commanding’, because she trusts no one ~ not even Him… to be of ‘real help’ to her… (Sad, but that is the case of ALL women when they get ‘saved’ by Jesus and He begins to work with ’em. (It’s just the way we ‘are’… We NEED to ‘feel’ that ‘command’ coursing through our veins… Women ‘need’ to ‘feel’ be superior to men, ‘in all things’, in actually… ‘especially’ in the ‘religion department’… ’cause rather than being ‘led’ by God ~ we wanna ‘be’ Him, ourselves… Nasty stuff, but true. Check out most churches… the SDA are the ‘closest’ to knowing their Word and knowing their ROLES that I’ve seen thus far ~ bar none ‘cept complete monk-like solitude with our Savior with no fellowship at all.

      But, in the story…? FINALLY (we can be ‘hard-headed’ as well as ‘hard hearted’ too, did I mention that…? ;-)) But, she finally ‘gets tired’ of being her ‘end all’ ‘be all’ momma Eve stuff that she was born with… it’s in her genes/jeans if you will allow me that pun… 😉

      And, one day they are kicked back on lush green grass that she just tipped them over the bike, onto ~ and they’re almost ready to get up and go again… But, this time ~ she has a ‘weird thought’ that just kinda ‘grazed over her mind’… “Hey. Wanna try my seat…? I’m pretty done for the day, here…”

      “I thought you’d never ask… ” was His Reply. And, now, Paul ~ they are off ‘together’… driving leisurely and at times ~ at warp speed… She takes in ‘everything’. She looks at all of Creation and it’s wonders… She can even take her hands off the handle bars… and she ‘wouldn’t trade this ‘seat’, as it were ~ for all of her days of grasping at desiring illegitimate ‘power and ‘authority’… But, she’s found “Perfect Peace” and eventually finds that her ‘Guide’ is also her soon to be her Master… her Lover and her King…

      In short ~ She ‘learns’ to begin to love Him… because He first ~ loved her…

      It’s the story of my life… of all of our lives… in Truth.

      So, as these days grow ‘darker’ with ‘weirdness of all sorts and deceptions of ‘all kinds’ ~ I will stand with and actually ‘in’ Christ and you guys by the loving power and promise and security of our blessed Psalm 91 and all that His Holy Bible has to offer us all.

      I love Him, and I love you guys, too.
      Find me somewhere on this stupid inter ‘net’ thingie… C.L.Thorpesa (the ‘sa’ is for South Australia) its a wordpress.com site and I’ve only recently began to publish ~ again, by Jesus’s Amazing Grace.

      All the blessings and honor and glory and power be to our GOD forever and ever, AMEN (and, Amen, again… ;-))

      Big warm smiles and hugs to the three of you, brothers of mine standing in His Truth to the very End ~ which is only our New Beginning… in Truth.

      Cynthia Lauren

      • (Another) Paul says:

        Thank you, Cynthia, for your kind words and encouragement.

        The Internet is notorious for frayed tempers and hasty rejoinders, and sadly even on Christian forums this sort of thing happens. All believers struggle daily with the old man and the flesh, and the impersonal and anonymous nature of the Internet often tempts us to say things we’d never dream of saying in person. (Of course the other side of that is that it can embolden us to say things that do perhaps need saying, but — human nature being what it is — it’s usually the fallen nature that takes charge.) Your reaction to the criticism you’ve received is the right one: don’t get embroiled in fights with other believers, but instead just pray for them and ask God to guide both them and you His way. This is His will: that we all are one and walking with Him. I pray that you, I, Cris and all here come to see things His way (none of us has all the answers; I know I certainly don’t), and that we treat one another as He would wish.

        God bless you, dear sister.

        Paul.

    • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

      ‘another’ Paul… I thank you as ‘another brother’, of mine.

      Without your lucid (in fact, ‘so lucid’ and ‘so filled with HUGE words, that clearly only Cris may understand) Christian perspective ~ and adherence to ‘keeping on point’ while maintaining that your thoughts were capable of being digested by a ‘laypersons’ such as myself… In short, ‘wowie zowie’, thank You, Jesus (and via Paul).

      I was thoroughly instructed in several points that I had absolutely ‘no idea about’ previously, and gained knowledge, while my heart and spirit gained strength. For your concise Words, I thank you.

      The sad part about them? I completely stand in agreement to the tendency that Cris seems to have… a ‘Greek-centered’ form of Christianity, as I posted ‘many posts’ ago. For that, my heart grieves and continues to pray, because I’ve followed many of his articles and found them fairly uplifting. But, Yes. I see this tendency in more and more men that say they are surrendered to Christ Jesus ~ and yet, they are inexplicably drawn to either men’s logic, as their base ~ or, the childish emotive response of ejaculatory (and, Pagan, at best…) responses to supposed brothers and sisters during this season where we should all be ‘watchful’ and be sticking to our Holy Bibles more than ever for our motivations… I find this so very sad, Paul. My heart breaks as my ‘gut’ steels itself for what is coming upon this earth. And, lastly in regard to the ‘many posts’, I certainly hope that this ‘seasonal bait’ isn’t used as some kind of ego trip… But, that’s between God and Cris, as I’m only called to pray for him, (and NOT as ‘pity’, either ~ but, merely as a sister of his in Christ Jesus.

      Since our ABBA says that when two or more are gathered ~ kinda thing… I ask that you lift him up with me, and petition our Father, that He further open Cris’s ‘spiritual eyes’ rather than his decidedly intellectualized ones. That’s my prayer, Paul and I just know it’ll be yours (even in a more eloquent way, than mine will be, but thankfully, Jesus knows us and knows the intent of our hearts, rather than our heads).

      I was told in high school that I had a high IQ. After this world was finished with it’s emotional and spiritual rape of me and my ‘nature’ ~ I only had my intellect left, Paul. (Oh, and ‘yeah’, I almost forgot… Of that baby in a manger, which I looked at and said (at 18): “What can that kid do for me?” or ~ seeing the grotesque ‘image’ of that beaten dead man, on a cross ~ with swaddling clothes genteelly placed around him, so that the FACTS of how the act was done ~ would be somehow ‘less’ offensive…, as if the charade once again, was to ‘cover that man’, to give him more ‘supposed dignity’…) In short ~ I stayed bankrupt and subject to santa/satan till I was fully 32 years of age, when Jesus Christ, HIMSELF saved me with that Stronger than satan’s Arm of His.

      I ‘sit’ before you today, at 57 years of age, SAVED BY THE GRACE OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST Alone, and for the Gift He has given me ~ I have decided (after 25 years of following Him closely) to wholly and completely give all that I am, all that HE Alone has made me ~ for His Cause and His, Alone. I can, and I will, do no less.

      Therefore, when I read the man Francis’s ‘Christmas message’, my prayerful heart turned to God, once again ~ and I was prompted to not only invite that man in Rome to my home in South Australia ~ but, asked that if he ‘surrender all his earthly goods (an article in ‘CP’, wrote of his message), I would fully surrender all of mine, in that ‘redistribution of wealth’ that he and his ‘vati-can’ is so keen on.

      The result? My ‘comment’ was not even accepted onto their moderator’s list… It just went ’round and around’ for a full 6.5 hours. So, I posted it on my new wordpress.com blog site(And, ‘yes’. I added more righteous indignation, along with my invitation) to my words. I was going to ‘see’ if wordpress.com was indeed (‘still kosher’, if you catch my meaning). They are not.

      My words ‘to that man in Rome’ were turned into ‘micro-print’ and paragraphs were smashed together in a jumble, that was quite offensive. The only way someone could read it was to ‘copy and paste it’ and then up the type. A cumbersome process, indeed.

      The ‘next result’? I have had my computer ‘monitored’ daily by only God Knows who. (Praying that as they read, they will see Jesus and seeds will be planted.) But, again ~ God IS Faithful, so very Faithful to His kids. He showed me why my words had this result.

      The Holy Spirit showed me that I had written to a man (who comes in his own name) that many consider a god. And, that when Jesus came ~ they treated God, as if He were a man. This is the ‘offense’, Paul. This is ‘christmas’, this is, that ‘image’ that hangs in perpetuity (according to man’s foolish thinking), and this is more ‘offensive’ to God than Aaron’s golden calf that came ‘fully assembled’ out of the fire at the ‘children’s’ request.

      I was shocked. I was horrified, and yet ~ as is always the case, I was edified by my Savior and King.

      Just wanted to give you the ‘latest update’, seeing that you’ve persevered through now ‘over’ 130 posts…

      I know that God will continue to bless your every step, Paul And, as I like to say, Amen. Yahoo. YAH, Who? YAHWEH, that’s ‘Who’.

      Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
      Just another daughter of His, who has decided now… even without Francis’s help… to surrender all of my earthly goods, and all that I am ~ to Him Who saved my soul from destruction.

      • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

        Sorry, Paul.

        I ‘also’ had a single question to ask you. Could you please tell me, that is ~ if you know, that is. Who actually thought up (besides santa) the first crucifix?

        I’ve tried numerous times to try to ‘google’ this information, and like ‘so much of this web’ ~ they have sanitized it of much ‘Truth’. So, I couldn’t find anything on this topic. Do you know anything about it ~ or, know a place where I can get further information on it? Because I now consider ‘that image’ that is now being accepted (by means of ecumenism, obviously) to be a true ‘desecration’ because that man in Rome carries that satanic crucifix around with him seemingly everywhere he goes (bent cross with the image of a dead man on it) and I know that they already basically ‘own’ Jerusalem… so, I can’t see much more that needs to be accomplished before our Savior returns, considering that all churches that ‘submit’ to ‘this supposed’ ‘mother’ of theirs… must first agree to submit to the pope’s authority. *Which THANKFULLY is ‘below’ Jesus’s.

        As you can see, I’d like to be ‘more knowledgeable’ and wondered if you could help.
        My email is: clthorpesa@gmail.com (I figure if the “nsa guys and gals” already know all about me, I may as well
        share this publicly too, ’cause everything is going to ‘come to the light’, eventually, right?
        A little sis’ of yours in Christ Jesus,
        Cynthia Lauren

  7. Cris Putnam says:

    Again missed the point, the only thing argued here is the date was not chose based on a pagan holiday.

    • April says:

      My point is….if you come to know the truth of the mistake that was made then why continue with the lie?

  8. Cris Putnam says:

    Again missed the point, the only thing argued here is the date was not chosen based on a pagan holiday.

  9. Cris Putnam says:

    Look up genetic fallacy…

  10. Mickey Merrie says:

    Yes, all I hear are those crickets you wrote about…

    The traditions of men such that they make His Word of no affect!
    Matthew 14 Mark 7.

    Ms. Tharp said it best when she wrote about 2 camps. One that follows the bible and one that follows the traditions of men.

    It is the same reason folks continue on in the “jesus franchises.” They love the traditions more than the Lord!
    It’s like a Chucky Cheese. He’s on the front of the building so you can find the building, but the reason they go is for the entertainment…

    Bread and circuses all…

    *********************************************
    “He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will
    find it.” -MATTHEW 10:39

    Each time you lose a part of your life, you will find Christ’s Life is right
    there to fill the void. Every single time. This is a spiritual truth, and there
    are no exceptions to the rule. Think of what it means. The more I give to Him,
    the more He gives to me. I trade in my life in exchange for His Life.

    Which would you rather have? Do you want your life, your failures, your
    mistakes, your frustrations, your sins? Or would you rather give that up in
    exchange for His Life? You can have either one you want, but you cannot have
    both.” C.Brogdan

    • Susie Q says:

      The traditions you referenced is to Yahshuah’s (Jesus) comment that men wanted to make their traditions on interpreting God’s word as law for everyone else. Don’t know that It really applies to this discussion. I also heard no crickets but intelligent communications.

  11. look2thesky says:

    By any other name Rubbish is still Rubbish and promoting it as a viable reason to continue the erroneous “traditions of men” is itself the most foul of Rubbish –

    “It’s the most Puhthetic time – It’s the most Puhthetic time – It’s the most Puhthetic time of the year…”

  12. Mark says:

    Chris….Seems to me the best way to present empirical evidence for a point is to prove the truth, not to cast doubt on untruth and leave the questions unanswered. God is not the author of confusion and you know the rest.
    The truth is: the Lord dwelt with man at the moment of conception. The real point is that a ubiquitous God doesn’t need to wait for gestation to dwell with men. This makes His conception and His birth very important to a true Christ – man. Forget about the world and what their doing. The whole premise of the point made here is moot and casts more doubt than truth. Jude 1: 3 says to earnestly contend for the faith, not to diss-prove myths…..
    I pray you would see the truth here, in front of your eyes.
    The true date of the conception of Jesus

    Read with understanding and know these dates are locked in.
    , 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

    “THE COURSE OF ABIA” (Luke 1:5).

    This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration in the Temple (1 Chronicles 24:10 [, and occurred, as did the others, twice in the year.

    The “Courses” were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Appendix 51. 5). This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the “Great Day of the Feast” (John 7:37, and was a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39

    The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia or Abijah (1 Chronicles 24:10

    Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the three Great Feasts, the dates for the two yearly “ministrations” of Abiah will be seen to fall as follows:

    The first 9 ministration was from 12-18 Chisleu = December 6-12.

    The second ministration was from 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

    The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conception of John the Baptist took place between 12-18 SIVAN (June 13-19), in the year 5 B.C. After finishing his “ministration”, the aged priest “departed to his own house” (Luke 1:23 , which was in a city10 in “the hill country” of Juda (verse 39).

    The day following the end of the “Course of Abia” being a Sabbath (Sivan 19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.

    The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a couple of days at least. He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21st or 22nd. This leaves ample time for the miraculous “conception” of Elizabeth to take place on or about 23rd of SIVAN 11 – which would correspond to June 23-24 of that year. The fact of the conception and its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards, and hence the 23rd SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conception of John Baptist as the 1st TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.

    But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliterated the real dates of our Lord’s “Begetting” and Birth, were also at work with regard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results. As soon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its proper date, videlicet: the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from the Pagan Calendars substituted for it (videlicet: December 25), then everything else had to be altered too.

    Hence “Lady Day” in association with March 25 (new style) became necessarily connected with the Annunciation. And June 24 made its appearance, as it still is in our Calendar, as the date of “the Nativity of John the Baptist”, instead of, as it really is, the date of his miraculous conception.

    The Four “Quarter Days” may therefore be set forth thus: first in the chronological order of the events with which they are associated, videlicet:

    The conception of John Baptist on or about 23rd SIVAN = June 24 in the year 5 B.C.
    The Gennesis (Begetting) of our Lord on or about 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
    The birth of John Baptist on or about 4th-7th NISAN = March 25-28 in the year 4 B.C.
    The birth of our Lord on or about 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

    or, placing the two sets together naturally:-

    {The conception of John 23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] rd SIVAN = June 23-24 in the year 5 B.C.
    {The birth of John 7 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] th NISAN = March 28-29 in the year 4 B.C.
    {The Miraculous “Begetting” 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
    {The NATIVITY 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

    • Susie Q says:

      Thank you for all the effort you did to write the information you set forth. For many years I held to this idea that Yahshuah (Jesus) was probably born during the Feast of Tabernacles as your table of information so patiently sets forth. As a right to life individual, I still commemorated His coming to us from Point of Conception, Dec 25, along with his birth at Feast of Tabernacles. Just recently however a messianic friend of mine asserted that according to the 2 Ta’anit in the Gemara part of the Talmud, the courses were doubled because when they returned to Jerusalem out of Babylon, there were not enough priests returning to Jerusalem to fulfill the Davidic Courses set forth in Chronicles. The prevailing perspective of my group of Messianic Friends at our Sabbath Bible Study is that there is no way to know when Jesus was born, God didn’t want us to know and of course I had to listen to the ongoing tirade against Christmas and its so called pagan roots & origins (nothing of which is ever sourced from literature of the time). Anyway though you”re information is straightforward but adequately detailed, according to my friend is but one of many options (don’t forget the priests had to show up for Pesach Shavuot,& Succuoth) Does that make her the grinch who stole Tabernacles?

      • Mark says:

        Thank you Susie Q… Yes, the Priests had gotten lazy and given all of the liturgical duties to certain nefarious characters and that is a another touchy subject. The reason most scholars miss the dates is they go go by the Gregorian calendar. The calenders of almost all ancient civilizations were solar and not lunar like ours. The year started in the spring with Nisan. 15 days after the solar equinox was passover (another touchy subject). Then seven sets of 50.
        All done with a sun dial. It would be mechanically impossible for them to have a lunar dial.
        And yes, rest assured, satan only imitates the real deal with Santa and the Eshtar bunny (my play) to distract people from what is really being celebrated.
        We should all be open to new truths and be willing to expand our minds, if in the right direction.
        Mark Vaughn

  13. Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

    I ‘get it’, Cris. I truly DO ‘get’ that 1. You don’t think Jesus was BORN on December 25th.

    I also ‘get’ that you think that ‘so many have missed your point’ that you were ‘merely saying’ that: jus’ plain ol’ folks tried to figure out Jesus’s ‘conception’ and then, wanted to ‘celebrate’ His Birth.

    I GET it. I really, truly do. I ‘get it’.

    It’s merely that you’ve inspired further confusion and that’s NOT the way God works. Not at all. God speaks to us in straight-forward manner. He is lucid. He is SUCCINCT in how He deals with us, His created Lifeforms, that He created in His Own Image. He speaks to us, even in our ‘limited capacity’, lovingly and with TRUTH.

    So, the TRUTH, and FACT of this matter is what I pose now to you, so that you may respond in similar TRUTH.

    So….. If you do NOT believe that Jesus was born on December 25th……….. WHO ‘DO’ YOU ‘KNOW’ THAT IS TRULY CELEBRATED ON THAT DATE OF DECEMBER 25TH??? ‘WHO’, JUST ‘WHO’, DO PAGANS AND NOW CHRISTIANS THAT DON’T FOLLOW THE WORD OF GOD ~ ACTUALLY ‘WORSHIP’ ON THAT DAY?

    (I’m NOT screaming, either. I’m using CAPITALIZATION for EMPHASIS, alone.

    IF zillions of others are running around, bowing in homage to these ‘other gods’ and ‘goddesses’ at the SPECIFIC date of December 25th ~ THEN, what in GOD’S MIGHTY AND POWERFUL NAME ARE ‘WE’ (using that term, loosely) DOING GOIN’ ALONG WITH THE ‘CROWD’ AND PARTICIPATING IN THEIR FARCICAL BEHAVIOR?

    Why on EARTH would we ‘choose the route’ of the zillions of others who BOWED to that golden statue??? Could you now ‘assume’ that since others bowed to it because their earthly King TOLD THEM TO DO SO, that since YOUR MOTIVES were ‘otherwise’….yet, you BOWED, NONETHELESS (for those ‘other’ more ‘scientific and greek mindsets, was ‘your’ purpose, even…) BUT, YOU ‘BOWED’ NONETHELESS and by writing this post, you have, in effect, given the “LESS KNOWLEDGEABLE” who actually FOLLOW WHAT YOU PUT FORTH, YET ANOTHER REASON TO NOT EVEN GIVE BOWING TO THIS ‘HOLY DAY’ ANOTHER THOUGHT.

    You have, in effect, LED OTHERS ASTRAY by your words, Cris. Whether that was your intent of your heart, I don’t know. I’m NOT supposed to know that. I think you are a great guy who happens to be a leader brought for a time such as THIS, but only GOD knows your heart, you and HIM have to work this puppy out between yourselves, like everyone does… But, to put forth this ‘rabbit trail’ out there, has only served to clarify the lines of demarcation that divide others ~ not unify them AT ‘THE CROSS’, as you should.

    (And, if you could get that gal, ‘Annetta’ off my back at the same time… Well, I’d be FOREVER grateful. She’s a mess that’s hiding under a veneer of ‘supposed Truth-filled Christianity’ and I’ll have none of that, any longer. None of it.

    If folks want a truly EDIFYING discussion… Let’s all focus on the Word of God as our ‘starting and finishing’ point, and in that manner ~ it will be a GODLY discussion. Not a human verbal ‘food fight’.

    Hey. Just for a new ‘tidbit’ of information… I get ‘taught in my sleep’, Cris. I really do. It’s beautiful and amazing.

    Anyway ~ I was ‘taught’ something just a few weeks ago, and my mind/heart forgot it till I saw Steve Quayle’s site today on the Hadron Collider-thing.

    I then remembered that my ‘Teacher’ (nope, I don’t see Him, but, I’m ‘in’ a classroom with others.) told me that Paul McGuire’s ‘Weather Underground’ fellas that he used to hang out with (Bill Ayers, Abby Hoffman, and the like) are CONNECTED with this Hadron thing. I was told that they are the ‘Weather Men’, and the collider is the ‘Weather Underground’ in association with them.

    Here’s prayin’ that ‘somehow’ this’ll make perfect sense to ‘someone’ with more scientific knowledge than I possess, because it’s EXACTLY what I was given, without even thinkin’ about ANYTHING in my sleep.

    I’ve emailed Paul. But, I figured that since I just did that, I’d share it with you, as well. I’ve looked up the god ‘Hadron’ and it does have some significance… something about ‘wisdom’…….but, all my ‘googling’ has led to only the ends of rabbit trails about Greek and Romanish gods and goddesses.

    God bless you in your search for His Truth, Cris. I know what you wrote was, at the least, sincere. I am no longer offended. You’re human, just like I am.

    Stand Strong in Christ Jesus, my Brother.

    Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
    Christian American in South Australia’s Coastal Outback

    • Annetta says:

      If I recall Cynthia, you engaged me in conversation and I replied. You apparently have a complex and want to be heard but mute others. I asked you multiple times to prove that the date itself stemmed from paganism, if it was antedated by any pagan writings, inscriptions, text before the early Church cited the date.But you can’t. Instead you ranted, called names, played God, pointed fingers.All the while shying away from answering the question and finding truth together. Those who shy away from learning the truth have no truth in them. Simple as that. We can’t learn together if people such as yourself are so puffed up that your arrogance blinds your humanity, integrity and humility. So with that said, if you ever wish to have a serious discussion and talk plus listen let me know. Until then you rants are akin to my three year old having a fit!

      Cris, I still think you did an excellent job on the article and brought up a valid point. The date is the biggest weapon people attempt to use in condemning Christians observing Jesus’ birth. Whether you believe He was born on Dec 25th or not, freeing the date with integrity from pagan myth is very important and leaves open for discussion and thought not focused on myth but on other areas of importance like why Christians kept the birth, Christian heritage and history.

      • jmvpho says:

        I agree with you. I would also like to say that we have at least 3 documented statements by early church fathers, Justin Martyr, Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem and Julius who all mention the census documents available in their time. They were searched and found amazingly that Yeshua was born December 25. This is readily available for anyone to read but I’m not sure why it is being ignored.

        I guess we’re all so insistent to condemn celebrating the greatest gift ever given, that we refuse to believe even the evidence confirming the date.

        Here is what I would like to ask Cynthia and others like her: If we must find the exact date a biblical event happened before we are allowed to celebrate it, share in joy, have a dinner, bring a gift to another, etc., then please tell me exactly when you will celebrate anything? How could you be sure of the date? Why would you even think to limit that experience in this manner or is it just the birth of Christ that you subject to this rigid test?

        What I find so astounding about this topic is the clearly revealed spiritual element involved here. I have never seen nor personally experienced more condemnation, vitriol and hate coming from the so called Believer, as I have with this subject. “Thou shalt not celebrate the long awaited for Messiah nor feast nor give gifts nor make merry anything to do with His appearance or the unprecedented celebration manifested by the very hosts of heaven.” Sounds just like something Satan would say…….

        • Cynthia Lauren says:

          You know… This is ‘all about’ ‘reason’…

          And, rather than write about all this ‘decidedly “human” bantering’, on the 25th of December… (which it is today) for me, out here… I will rather suggest to everyone on this site that we as Christians are to pray.

          We are called to pray and we are called to be vigilant. And, I daresay that no one on this earth is ‘more happy and celebrative than I am, 365 days a year. No one. I know where Jesus ‘saved me from’, and I know it by direct experience which is substantially backed up by Scripture. I therefore choose *as our Savior and Lord GIVES us that ‘choice’ to pray and have fun, like I always do…again… 365 days a year. Period.

          You guys do ‘whatever it is’ you want to do ~ obviously ~ as well.

          What ‘I’ consider as ‘important and necessary’ is what is held ‘within the pages of the Holy Bible. And, I will call it HOLY from now on, because when I was in prayer yesterday, the Holy Spirit gave me a revelation about what He thinks about the book that we call the Holy Bible ~ and yet ~ we as believers have kinda… just dropped the Holy bit, and just talk about The Bible…

          But, He ~ while I was in prayer, spoke to me that all the precious blood that has been split over this God-sent Book from Him ~ via the writing hands of men who followed Him ~ had much MORE blood shed over it’s pages than Jesus’s alone.

          Yes. The Holy Bible ~ is HOLY ~ and God considers ALL the blood that has been shed over the years after Christ’s supreme sacrifice ~ to be Holy as well… because He says “Be Holy, as I am Holy.” and those men and women followed Him into that sacrificial act of His, so… ALL the blood that has been split since Jesus’s sacrifice in times like the Reformation… He considers Holy.

          Doesn’t that behoove each of us to not only “celebrate Jesus” 365 days a year ~ for all that He’s done ~ but, to also do as His Holy Word says, and stick to that Holy Word… rather than using our ‘reasoning’, our ’emotions’ and our insistence to stand and ‘strain out gnats, while we swallow camels…?’

          That’s all I am saying guys. Call me anything you’d like ~ it’s ALL been done before… I just choose to love you all and pray for all of us. Plain an’ simple. What I do on days like today, is that I always speak about Jesus’s birth ~ regardless of the actual ‘date’. I choose to speak about His love, His sacrifice, His death, and His resurrection, I speak about His Gift that He’s given us… But, I do it 365 days a year, not just on pagan holy days.

          Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
          Clinging to the Holy Word of God and loving the life He’s given me, regardless the ‘circumstances’, always…and I always do it with pure JOY. (Try, just TRY to do that at all times… be Joyful… always. It ain’t easy for any mere human to accomplish ~ but, in Christ Jesus, I’ve found that we are able to.) .

          • look2thesky says:

            ThankYou Cynthia!

            Years ago when the truth about “christmas” was shown to me I took up the saying:
            “Everyday is a good day to celebrate the birth of the Christ” and as you add “not just on pagan holy days”

            Thank You as well for reiterating “Holy” as in the “Holy Bible”
            An Excellent reminder!

            Your profile shows you see a far reaching horizon and have much life experience – I respect that very much – and while I was born in 1955 I can’t say if it was a good year for corvettes – 😀 I mean – were they even being made then?
            Regardless – Thanks again for the many goodly points you made and I wish and pray the very best for you and yours in the days, and years ahead!

            Take Care!
            Andrew Scott Bandalos “The Rocky Mountains – Bone Marrow of the Earth” USA (Colorado)

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Ohhh… THANK YOU for blessing me so very (add a million ‘verys’ to that). Andrew!!!!! Thank you for not only making me ‘smile with total joy’ at ‘knowing you’re out there’ and that we will eventually meet and hug and laugh and SHOUT FOR JOY when we actually are with each other always ~ in Christ Jesus.., at His Feet!

            I mean, you are SO right!!! 🙂 I mean… we are JOY-FILLED 24/7 (almost to the point of hilarity at times ~ and other times… in quiet happy contemplations, as well. I mean… HOW BEAUTIFUL IS THAT???!!!

            I don’t really know ‘how’ Cris gets us these comments to each other… Sometimes I ‘see them’ ~ many Times I don’t, sadly ~ but, gee wizz, my BROTHER ANDREW FROM THE ‘MARROW’ OF THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS………..YOU HAVE BLESSED THIS (sometimes tired ;-)) SOUL BY TYPING THESE WORDS TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!

            My ‘joy’ is just over-flowing at your kindness for having done that. ALL OF MY VERY BEST TO YOU AND TO YOURS AND TO EACH PERSON YOU COME UPON AS YOU SHARE THE TRUTH (WHO IS OUR CHRIST!) WITH THE JOY THAT YOU SO VERY MUCH POSSESS!!! (GREAT WRITIN’ THERE, TOO, BUDDY. 😉 YOU ‘HIT MY HEART’ AND I’LL BE BLESSED ALL DAY ~ REGARDLESS OF WHAT DAY IT IS ~ WE DON’T ‘DO TRADITION OF SILLY HUMAN MEN ~ WE FOLLOW HIS WORDS, JESUS’S WORDS, THE HOLY BIBLE HE PROVIDED FOR US ~ And, whether others ‘get that’ ~ or, not… That’s up to them and not us. I mean, if we just pray for each other with a pure heart ~ WHAT MORE COULD JESUS REALLY WANT??? WE’RE LOVING EACH OTHER IN HIM ~ REGARDLESS OF OUR ‘INDIVIDUAL ‘TASTES’, AS IT WERE.

            All my love to you my Brother… and I’m gonna try to get to thank Matt, too. I see that we ‘3’ are alive, happy and most importantly ~ VIGILANT in the Light of Christ ~ as these days grow darker. Yet ~ they will NOT menace us ~ for we dwell in the secret place of the Most High simply because we OBEY His Words ~ even to our detriment. The Brothers who went before us were TRUE to Him ~ therefore, we own them ~ we OWE JESUS that ‘debt’ to surrender ourselves ~ ALL of ourselves ~ to Him and to Him alone. God helping us ~ no one can be ‘effectively’ against us, Andrew.
            Ohhhh how I wish I could get you some egg nog and celebrate with you today ~ but, I’ll happily wait to do that someday, my Brother… Some day we shall talk and laugh and ‘tragedy’ will be far, far behind us.

            Your sis’ in Jesus… 🙂 Cynthia 🙂

          • mark says:

            This is to Cynthia: Seems to me, you are part of the “endless banter” on here and in light of the scriptural basis I have given, there really is a date that is locked in stone so to speak of the miraculous begetting of Jesus and His birth. Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise? If so where is it? Where are your studies? If your children celebrated your birthday on the wrong day wouldn’t that bother you? Why would it not behoove you or anybody else to at least get your Savior’s birth date right?
            I agree about celebrating every day but what you suggest that The Miraculous begetting and birth of God isn’t special and it is the same as all other days. We are called to celebrate His birth, period. As far as the Word being “Holy” , yes it it is, but it is best to know it before you quote it and take it out of context. Here is what God’s Word say’s about the begetting of “The WORD”: John 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
            2 The same was in the beginning with God.14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. I am not the moderator, but I read other posts you wrote and they were not in the spirit of love you so fervently speak about. The spirit behind your messages isn’t love, it is “I”…. Written in love……

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            …can’t find where to post this to you, Mark…

            But, if you feel better after what you’ve just written to me… then, I’m okay with that, too.

            The best and most beautiful item that Truth brings us ~ is that He is also Love…

            Possessing the ‘Courage’ to always speak Truth in His Love ~ is the hallmark of a Christian. It entails the development of their character in Christ Jesus. It is what we, Stand in, and Stand on ~ regardless of how the Truth of His Words are taken.

            Cynthia Lauren Thorpe
            Kingston SE, South Australia
            Loving Jesus and following His Lead ~ to the very last ounce of my being by His Grace, through His Truth and Love, as Luther said ~ I can do no less, so help me, God..

          • look2thesky says:

            😀 Cynthia – You’ve made my day (and days ahead) my new found sister Dear!

            I’m most glad I followed the prompting to say a word of thanks for your postings –

            With all of the nonsense that’s been put forth, with so many trying to show their – ahem – complete grasp of Everything – and with the obvious efforts being made to convince people to continue to cling to empty “traditions” (bold faced lies) your words have been and are a welcome voice of clarity –

            I thank He Who knows all things for letting me know you are there as well – because, as you know, especially in these days in which we live, the path of Truth has very few true travelers and so to meet up with a fellow seeker/follower/traveler is most rewarding especially at this time in my life – near monastic solitude, discipline, with hours set aside each day to pray for the souls of my fellow man – (don’t let the monastic stuff scare you – “I ain’t no” catholic YIKES!!! 😀 I’ve been led to turn my back on the world of man to a greater degree than most it seems and so I do that as I am able to right now is all)

            If finances allowed I would fly to the “down under” this evening and give you most Huge Hugs – (not to cause your husband concern though) I have a feeling we would converse and share and fellowship until we were either too hoarse to speak another word or our tummy muscles were too sore to laugh any more 😀 (who knows – perhaps He who brought us together in “cyber space” will see fit to bring that about before we step through the threshold of eternity – time will tell 😀

            Thank You again for what you’ve written here concerning the “holy day” hoopla, as well as your most generous and kind reply to my hello –
            But I’d better leave off for now – doesn’t that fly around the world, grossly overweight, red suit guy break into peoples houses and leave worthless trinkets tonite? GASP!!! I don’t want him to bypass your place because you’re still not in bed yet – (it’s almost not even funny to joke about – grumble, mutter, spit – lying to children “ain’t cool”)

            Fortunately we know better! 😀

            I’m praying you and yours have a Day of days on the morrow and look forward to our eventual Hello!
            Much Love From Above!
            Andrew Scott 😀

          • look2thesky says:

            Slaps forehead – the red suit guy’s already been by that part of the world (I hope you got everything on your list – shudder 😀

            Have a day of days young lady!

            ps – great story about the bicycle – your honesty with yourself is most refreshing – I much respect!

            I’m going to try and find your site – thanks for sharing –

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            My Dear, Dear Brother Andrew Scott. (Looked up the meaning of your name and it’s beautiful and true, too)

            I am laughing now… Laughing in YOUR honest and fun-filled words…! Yes. It’s so ‘wildly Joyful’ to find another who is following Jesus, as we do… I’m almost overcome by tears of joy… We are ‘two of a kind’ within Him… Perhaps kin to each other by Body Part… I’m surmising.

            Yes. If ‘I’ were to have the ability ~ you and I (and Paul and Matt, and the ‘whole lot of us’ would be building a fire (we can ‘still’ do that out here) on the 90 miles of PRISTINE beach that is only two ‘paddocks’ (fields, to us) away from the home, here…

            We’d just kick back and relax and look at God’s amazing night sky… We’d laugh. We’d share… I’m gonna cry… I jus’ KNOW it… But, there is MUCH rejoicing when like-mind’s who are those who desire His Mind (as we are told to…by the by… ;-)) so that we ‘are’ in Christ Jesus. We therefore in fact, ‘are’ the Righteousness of Christ, in His Father. What an amazing Truth, indeed… How very blessed we truly are… Again, I’m almost overcome by the joy of having ‘met you’ ~ while not having ‘met you’ in the physical… I feel as if I’ve known you were ‘there’… for the whole of my lifetime… and yet, I suffered loss, at not ‘reading’ you, as it were…

            It’s JESUS within us that we are so ‘celebratory’ over… I just know it. :-)…. It’s the joy of reading ‘Him’ as He manifests Himself in a brother… or, even a sister, who has submitted to His Way… His Guidance… and His Wisdom and Joy. I am reminded that “for the joy set before Him, he endured…” it ‘all’, in short, just because we were still to be coming into this world, which isn’t our ‘home’ my Brother Andrew… our ‘Home’ is coming ever closer, it’s Light is shining EVER more Brightly as this present ‘darkness’ still rejects and is repelled by it… Yet, this Light is warming my very essence, the depths of my soul. THAT will be just part of the ‘Ongoing Ecstasies’ that Jesus has for those who love…and as a DIRECT consequence… follows His Commands and His Teachings…

            Can you just ‘imagine’, Andrew…? Can you just ‘catch a glimpse’ of the manifest Joy that we will be experiencing as we listen in rapture (and, not that false one, either… ;-)) at the zillions upon ZILLIONS of true stories that are, in fact, HIS Story, through all of us……. Rapturous, indeed, and in DEED.

            Yes. I was HOPING you’d be able to somehow find my email comment here… ‘Cause once I know you’re ‘out there’, frankly ~ I promise to never let go. I promise. As your little sis’ in Christ Jesus ~ I promise to stand as you do, my Brother, in Him ~ forever and ever to His Glory, Alone.

            Yes, though. “monk-dum’ (or whatever… :-)) doesn’t bother me one single bit. It’s the way I am, as well. Not even Ian, my Sweetheart, ‘understands’ this love I have for Jesus and His TRUTH… He finds it ‘a bit disconcerting’… and just won’t ‘let go’ in God. It’s okay. We met on Christian Cafe.com (some gals posted me on there many years ago now… and we met.) It was then, after ‘dating’ long distance for 2 years ~ that I agreed to ‘check out Australia’ and pray about if Jesus actually wanted me out here…

            It turns out that He did, though ~ in doing that, I have GROWN as a Christian… having been ‘pulled up by my bootstraps’ as it were ~ over the past 7.5 years… American Christians, in short ~ have been largely ‘bamboozled’ by man-made doctrines, by silly dispensationalisms… and all other manner of pure ‘pettiness’ that tends to bind us in ‘the grave clothes’ that our brother Lazarus had… But, it’s up to each one of us to ask Jesus to ‘unbind us’ and we then, walk free… Yet another miracle of His Doing, not ours. We just gotta ‘surrender’… to Him Alone… and it’s so very very tough to do… Andrew Scott. It is.

            We MUST (please?) keep in contact. I will ‘see’ if my ‘obedience-thing’ to His Spirit will bear fruit on this ‘net’ of man’s making… I can’t use it all that well… But, we shall see. By posting on my little site, I have in effect, ‘cast the Bread He has given me, upon the waters…’ And, only He provides the means by which it will come to fruition of any kind. I ‘get’ that. I’m so very cool with that. It’s ALL up to Him, I’m just supposed to Trust, and Obey… as it were… while reading His Inspired Holy Word. (While I have many Bibles… I have found, increasingly, I am focused on my KJV’s… ’cause the manner in which the Scriptures have become corrupted by again, human hands, with the adversary’s motive behind them (they being unwitting, or even ‘witting’ participants’ ~ isn’t my concern. I am to only pray for them.)
            they have slipped ‘tweaks’ into The Word, which has literally changed the meanings of over 11,000 verses, in my estimation, at this point in time.

            It is FOLLY at it’s ‘highest’ to stray off of the Written Word. I find that most find the Bible quite like a diving board… they get on it… and then, they use it… to jump off into the deep blue depths of emotionalism… or… intellectualism… or, sadly, both.

            But, not for me, kiddo. Nope. (Oh, and Jesus an’ my prayers will ‘save you’ from that stupid lil’ fat creature in the red suit… is that a ‘Jesuit’ or… ‘Jesus-Suit?’… I always like to ask…?

            ‘Cause I’ve termed the silly Jesuits as mere “Jesus-suits” being ‘all dressed up as if they were Him…’ but, having absolutely none of His Power, under their foolish garb… But, I pray for them, too. Whether they are Luciferians or not… I don’t wanna see anyone lose the opportunity to find the Joy that we’ve found in Christ Jesus. Not a ‘single’ soul. Not ‘one’. Zilch, zero, not one.

            All my love to you ~ in Him, forever and always… Now, I’m gonna see how ‘wordpress’ and these ‘disqus’ guys will try to thwart my words going out into this world’s waters… 😉

            You NEW FRIEND and Forever Sister in Him Who is our Life,

            Cynthia (smiling so deeply and warmly that my face actually ‘hurts’ for my Joy I’ve now found… 🙂 Owch! hahahaha… warmest happiest thoughts to you ~ always and forever, Andrew… Scott. 🙂
            from Cynthia Lauren (Cynthia… ‘something Greek’ about the moon… and Lauren, female version of Laurence, being ‘brave-hearted’… I say that without Jesus, I’d be just a hard, cold ball of dusty rock, but once He shines on me….. I glow in the reflection of His Light… I owe Him everything. Every. Thing., my Brother…

          • Cynthia Lauren Thorpe says:

            Gee wizz, Andrew… This inter-‘net’, is getting weirder ‘every day’… I’ve been all over this thing, and finally found my site… But, to get to it ~ took a TON of work,..

            Here you go, here’s praying it’ll work:

            clthorpesa.wordpress.com

            Be Blessed, my Dear Brother… ’cause every word, every single one, is true. Every one.

            Cynthia Lauren

          • look2thesky says:

            YIKES!!! I didn’t even get a lump of coal :O
            I guess the red suit guy doesn’t like it when people tell the truth about him – fortunately, he’s back in his make believe, doesn’t exist nowhereland up north somewhere for another year – Good Riddance! 😀

            I read your messages last nite (24th) just as I was getting ready to stretch out the bedroll and wanted to write back but I knew I would have been up “past my bedtime” by quite a bit if I started addressing even some of the things you bring up – That discipline stuff has me waking at 2:30a and in prayer soon afterwards, then Word study, a little breakfast, more study – I’m learning spanish right now – and then on with the day etc.

            I tried going to your site – I entered the address in my url space and it came back with a warning that the security certificate didn’t match up and “we recommend that you not proceed” which I think is an unnecessary warning but I wanted to check with you before I went any further –

            Your name is very apt – That feminine moon thing and braveheart indeed – one of the coolest love stories ever put to screen in my opinion – (my dad was full blooded Greek and my middle name was going to be Stephen like his but it ended up being Scott so as not to have a “junior” confusion thing going on – divorce happened when I was 2 – but that’s what I was told anyway)

            Your insight into “Institutitionalized American Christianity” is spot on – It’s shallowness leaves much to be desired to say the least – For years I’ve said: I was born in this country but I don’t follow the “American way” – which is what most “christians” in this country seem to be doing – they follow the american way to the hilt and then attach the label of christian on top of it and really don’t consider the fact that america isn’t the Kingdom of Christ nor does following the american way lead anywhere near
            to even the entrance of where we need to be – all of the cross addictions people have that they take for granted or as a necessary part of life – “I can’t start my day without “my” coffee” as example –
            caffiene, nicotine, alcohol, pot, happy pills, meth, coke, and all of the other blinding, soul killing substances that are pushed on the public (not only in america but throughout the world) makes for a bleary eyed view of things – (having been “cross addicted” for many years “Come here little boy – try this” – I know whereof I speak – fortunately, those who are willing to do the work can follow the Teacher and learn to “overcome” and leave that darkness behind)

            “Straying from the Word” “Emotionalism” “Intellectualism” – your insight makes me smile big smiles –

            As far as the “english translation debate” “KJV ONLY” stuff and all of that – I’m quite aware of the battles that rage, and while there is some validity in some of the arguments, and one must be careful – isn’t that why we pray for discernment, and “keep vigilant” ?
            I see most of it as, once again more “intellectualism/emotionalism” W A R – We Are Right! division caused by the enemy

            With all of the bible sites that are now online: http://biblehub.com as example all of the various English translations can be accessed and seen side by side if so desired and it’s fairly easy, “with eyes to see” to see what one needs to see –

            It’s similar to the whole “sacred name” debate – WAR – thing – I mean even a brief glance into it and you can find that “Jesus” wasn’t the “Son of Man’s” name (and really has no meaning whatsoever) but is a
            mistransliteration of a mistransliteration – the “J” sound not even part of the worlds languages until the middle ages – whereas Yahoshua (Y’shua) has the meaning of “the salvation of Yah” and yet it’s such a point of contention for so many – much like the “christmas/ easter” debates – that I stay away from it as well and usually use “Christ” or “the Son of Man” -Christ being “the Anointed” as HaMashiack – the Messiah – and “the Son of Man” being the term he most used to describe himself –

            So many evil tentacles the “Jesus Suit” people have spread throughout the centuries – and I’m not just talking about the “jesuits” but all of the enemy’s infiltrators –

            We’re warned repeatedly by the Teacher about these things though are we not?
            “Be wary…” “Be on your guard…” “Take heed…” “See to it that no one misleads you…”
            “Behold, I have told you everything in advance…” etc.
            And so first and foremost that is what we must do – regardless of the slander/hater labels/scoffing etc. that goes along with it –

            But alas, Cynthia dear – before this gets any longer I’d better wrap things up – I know it’s the wee hours of the morning on the 26th where you are as I write so you are fast asleep –

            Thanks again for your insight and words of encouragement – I am most grateful – for all of the others who have posted here as well – Faye – is another lady who seems to see clearly as well as those you mentioned – although it seems the majority don’t want to give up the nonsense and the lies –
            Prayer and more prayer that their eyes will be opened – that they “get it” – laughs!

            I hope your new day ahead is a beautiful one –
            (I almost wish you hadn’t brought up the seaside though – I was born in WashDC and spent many a summer day swimming on the Atlantic coast growing up – I’ve also swam in the Pacific at various places on the west coast and know I could be a geetar strumming, equatorial beach bum with little effort – YIKES!!!) 😀
            With snow on the ground here where I’m at in the Rockies, and a cold wintry day ahead – at least the sun is shining in all it’s brilliance – I’m dreaming of Sun, Sand, and Surf 😀

            Make it a Day of days!
            Take Care!
            Much Love!

            Andrew Scott

          • look2thesky says:

            YIKES!!! I didn’t even get a lump of coal :O

            I guess the red suit guy doesn’t like it when people tell the truth about him – fortunately, he’s back in his make believe, doesn’t exist nowhereland up north for another year – Good Riddance!

            I read your messages last nite (24th) just as I was getting ready to stretch out the bedroll and wanted to write back but I knew I would have been up “past my bedtime” by quite a bit if I started addressing even some of the things you bring up – That discipline stuff has me waking at 2:30a and in prayer soon afterwards, then Word study, a little breakfast, more study – I’m learning spanish right now – and then on with the day etc.

            I tried going to your site – I entered the address in my url space and it came back with a warning that the security certificate didn’t match up and “we recommend that you not proceed” which I think is an unnecessary warning but I wanted to check with you before I went any further –

            Your name is very apt – That feminine moon thing and braveheart indeed – one of the coolest love stories ever put to screen in my opinion – (my dad was full blooded Greek and my middle name was going to be Stephen like his but it ended up being Scott so as not to have a “junior” confusion thing going on – divorce happened when I was 2 – but that’s what I was told anyway)

            Your insight into “Institutitionalized American Christianity” is spot on – It’s shallowness leaves much to be desired to say the least – For years I’ve said: I was born in this country but I don’t follow the “American way” – which is what most “christians” in this country seem to be doing – they follow the american way to the hilt and then attach the label of christian on top of it and really don’t consider the fact that america isn’t the Kingdom of Christ nor does following the american way lead anywhere near
            to even the entrance of where we need to be – all of the cross addictions people have that they take for granted or as a necessary part of life – “I can’t start my day without “my” coffee” as example –
            caffiene, nicotine, alcohol, pot, happy pills, meth, coke, and all of the other blinding, soul killing substances that are pushed on the public (not only in america but throughout the world) makes for a bleary eyed view of things – (having been “cross addicted” for many years “Come here little boy – try this” – I know whereof I speak – fortunately, those who are willing to do the work can follow the Teacher and learn to “overcome” and leave that darkness behind)

            “Straying from the Word” “Emotionalism” “Intellectualism” – your insight makes me smile big smiles –

            As far as the “english translation debate” “KJV ONLY” stuff and all of that – I’m quite aware of the battles that rage, and while there is some validity in some of the arguments, and one must be careful – isn’t that why we pray for discernment, and “keep vigilant” ?
            I see most of it as, once again more “intellectualism/emotionalism” W A R – We Are Right! division caused by the enemy

            With all of the bible sites that are now online: biblehub dot com as example all of the various English translations can be accessed and seen side by side if so desired and it’s fairly easy, “with eyes to see” to see what one needs to see –

            It’s similar to the whole “sacred name” debate – WAR – thing – I mean even a brief glance into it and you can find that “Jesus” wasn’t the “Son of Man’s” name (and really has no meaning whatsoever) but is a
            mistransliteration of a mistransliteration – the “J” sound not even part of the worlds languages until the middle ages – whereas Yahoshua (Y’shua) has the meaning of “the salvation of Yah” and yet it’s such a point of contention for so many – much like the “christmas/ easter” debates – that I stay away from it as well and usually use “Christ” or “the Son of Man” -Christ being “the Anointed” as HaMashiack – the Messiah – and “the Son of Man” being the term he most used to describe himself –

            So many evil tentacles the “Jesus Suit” people have spread throughout the centuries – and I’m not just talking about the “jesuits” but all of the enemy’s infiltrators –

            We’re warned repeatedly by the Teacher about these things though are we not?
            “Be wary…” “Be on your guard…” “Take heed…” “See to it that no one misleads you…”
            “Behold, I have told you everything in advance…” etc.
            And so first and foremost that is what we must do – regardless of the slander/hater labels/scoffing etc. that goes along with it –

            But alas, Cynthia dear – before this gets any longer I’d better wrap things up – I know it’s the wee hours of the morning on the 26th where you are as I write so you are fast asleep –

            Thanks again for your insight and words of encouragement – I am most grateful – for all of the others who have posted here as well – Faye – is another lady who seems to see clearly as well as those you mentioned – although it seems the majority don’t want to give up the nonsense and the lies –
            Prayer and more prayer that their eyes will be opened – that they “get it” – laughs!

            I hope your new day ahead is a beautiful one –
            (I almost wish you hadn’t brought up the seaside though – I was born in WashDC and spent many a summer day swimming on the Atlantic coast growing up – I’ve also swam in the Pacific at various places on the west coast and know I could be a geetar strumming, equatorial beach bum with little effort – YIKES!!!)
            With snow on the ground here where I’m at in the Rockies, and a cold wintry day ahead – at least the sun is shining in all it’s brilliance – I’m dreaming of Sun, Sand, and Surf

            Make it a Day of days!
            Take Care!
            Much Love!

            Andrew Scott

          • Andrew. My dear, dear Andrew Scott,

            Methinks we’ve gotten the little man in the red suit (is that the Pope, by ‘chance’…?) upset, my brother!

            I was ‘so very joyful’ by your words that I ‘wrote and wrote’, going MUCH further into the history of my supernatural experiences after having been saved by our ‘former’ ‘Baby in the manger’ ~ Who actually DID turn into a ‘Man’ in the “normal” human manner… Just ‘had’ to throw that one in there, my brother ;-))

            So, in effect, Y.O.U. gave me the GREATEST Present of the Season, of them All.

            You inspired me to actually get well into my ‘3rd year’ in Christ Jesus, (when I lived in Salt Lake City for 15 years) and, I totally ‘understand’ that you ‘may be dissuaded’ by the silly ‘powers that ‘think’ they own this interweb… (I mean, ‘inter’ ‘net’ on the World Wide ‘web’…) but, I promise, there is no way any silly ‘wordpress’ gal or guy could prohibit the spread of our God’s Message, regardless of the silly messenger that He uses. (Such as myself, ;-), you understand.)

            But, my Dear Andrew Scott (I’ve read Spanish since I was a kid and love my Spanish Holy Bible, a bunch, so PLEASE keep that Spanish learning up, my Dear… as It IS a ‘true’ romance language.) ~ our ‘little mad ‘santa’ had taken my ‘Invitation to the Pope’ that I wrote (just because his ‘Christmas Message’ inspired me so) and not ONLY did the CP (Christian Post, I’m thinkin’?) not even get my happy little invitation to the Pope, even to a ‘moderator’… (just think of THOSE implications, my brother) but, they allowed my little comments to go ‘around and ’round’ for over (get this!) for over 6.5 HOURS!

            So, what would ‘any’ ‘nice Christian gal do when she was thwarted by this ‘CP’ site, I ask you? Well, I just pasted and then retyped the WHOLE invitation to Pope Francis on my new little site, so that perchance, he might go surfing one day and ‘catch’ that I had been so MOVED by his talk about the ‘sins of greed and avarice’, that I had decided to not ONLY give up ‘all my earthly possessions’ ~ but, also invite him over here to Kingston ~ so that we could walk down into Kingston together… in order to DISTRIBUTE OUR WEALTH AS WE SHOULD, obviously… Together! Just he…and I.

            So, when I posted it on ‘wordpress’ (I guess that’s God’s ‘wine’ press, but I won’t go there) do you KNOW WHAT THEY DID…? They turned ‘all of my invitation’ to Pope Francis into teeny tiny microscopic font. Yep. That’s just what they did.

            And, while you and I (and perhaps even Cris, here, ‘who’ knows..?) might chalk that up to the ‘cut and paste’ feature… (right?) that ‘doesn’t cut it’ because my ‘stats’ for the 24th of December show absolutely POSITIVELY ‘nothing’. Nothing. Not even a ‘date’ that says December 24th ~ so, yeah. “Santa” is forever ‘overplaying his gloved little hand’, as it were… These ‘wordpress’ guys are also playing up as things would have it.

            So…. ‘what to do, what TO do…’ Well, I read your words, here ~ I prayed a BUNCH ~ and I wrote and wrote about my encounters with Jesus at the beginning of my life, like I had agreed to do. I typed on through the night, like I had little reindeer flying my fingers over the keyboard… It was an amazing sight to behold…, truly. 😉

            And, then ~ I went to sleep. And, you know what happens when you answer Jesus by doing as He requests??? (SURE you do!) We get BLESSED! I woke this morning (YOUR special festive day, over there in the good ol’ USA) at 5am to my sweetheart talking to me about a dream he had.

            I told him that I was just kinda ‘conversing with Jesus’ in a dream I was having as well… And, you know what?!! We laughed and laughed, because by refusing to post my ‘invite’ to Francis on CP ~ and then WordPress messing with the font of my Invite and deleting even the DATE of the post ~ and then turning my words into micro-font, even… Well, Jesus has just ‘upped the ante’ once again.

            And, this time, my brother… I’m gonna saddle up that ol’ mare ‘Wildfire’ ’cause methinks that we’ll have this ‘web’ of theirs… really shaking. 😉

            Can’t wait to see what Jesus has me write.
            And, ‘who knows?’ Mebbe no one will ‘ever’ see it ~ ’cause this ‘net’ has already been exposed as being ‘rigged’, (even though I pray for the guys and gals at the NSA, an’ all…) ’cause EVERYONE who has a ‘site’ ~ knows that they are monkeying with our stuff, everyone already knows that ~ ‘that’ isn’t ‘news’, per se, but their censoring of comments (like on WND.com ) where one may add a little comment like: “We should all pray for our pResident…” stuff like that ~ get my keyboard keys strokes put on a type of ‘hold’ where each stroke takes 4 to 5 seconds to get a letter to pop up… Stuff like that. So, I told Farrah’s people about it ~ and they told me that there was nothing they could do… to go write to ‘Disqus’… and I mean, you know where THAT would get me… So, I’ve quit posting on WND ~ because their site has become corrupted as well…

            But, not before I left them by sharing that Christopher Monckton is one of the highest leaders in the Knights of Malta… which is the catholic church’s little so-called ‘military arm’ of their nefarious place… and, ‘zap’! Even though I told them that they too, could be reporters and ‘google’ what I’d found… I was left, sad and quite seemingly alone… with Jesus, that is…. till, YOU, my brother… walked up here and began to get your little sis’ outta her doldrums just before our ‘special little day’ of the 25th of December.

            So, yep. Unless, these guys are now hacking into Cris’s site here… Perhaps you’ll be able to read my words ‘before’ next ~ ‘x-mass’… Who knows…

            ;-D Your lil’ sis ~ Cynthia Lauren

          • look2thesky says:

            😀 Thank you again for your continuing insight and encouragement Cynthia Dear!

            YIPPEE!!! HOORAY!!! HOORAY!!! this silly and much debated day is gone for another year –

            How many people/christians are relieved? “God, I’m glad that’s over with!” laughs – except for taking down the ridiculous decorations/trees etc. I wonder how much electricity is wasted around the world just in christmas light displays? People can afford to pay exhorbitant electric bills for that, but to give food to a starving child is never even thought of for most – Anyway – I’m going to leave it behind and pray that more eyes are opened –

            You know I was almost surprised when you mentioned C. Monckton being a high ranking Malta man – “Lord Monckton” right? The very articulate anti-global warming dude from a couple of years back – actually I shouldn’t be surprised – “controlled oposition” (I guess I liked the way he shut them down with the facts)
            I think George Galloway is one of the only true ones left – he and Morales from Bolivia – also Venezuela’s president – possibly the lady leader of Brazil – I like Putin but even he’s shown the horned hand sign and so I think he’s in on the evil stuff as well –
            I used to sometimes go to WND but they proved themselves “controlled oposition” as well – they continue to promote the “left/right” illusion/pradigm as if it’s a legitimate reality – both sides are bought and paid for –
            The Rothschilds have a lot of money and have twisted the “modern” world of man into the unclean mess that it is – they do the bidding of their master as is well known –

            I’m leary of most websites anymore – they all seem to have been taken over – infiltrated –
            which shouldn’t surprise us I guess – what did the Apostle John tell us?
            “the Whole world lies in the power of the evil one”
            so while it’s still a great way for work to be done – and the research capabilities are still fantastic – the internet has been compromised to say the least –
            I will pray that your “problems” are no more!
            I too have had trouble posting and know what you mean when it takes seconds for a single letter to appear – it’s frustrating, but not to give up!

            You mentioned Chuck Missler on the Sunday/Sabbath thread and I just wanted to say I’ve watched most if not all of his posted lectures on Youtube – he’s a great mind and well researched/learned man –
            I respect him much!
            Now if he would just realize the truth about the whole “pre-tribulation rapture” hoopla – I pray his eyes are opened – along with everyone else who’s still duped by that nonsense –

            The enemy and his duped henchmen work overtime while the majority shuffle through and live a sleep walk, “roomful of mirrors” existence –
            Fortunately some, and more than we know are waking up – which is a good thing!

            To continue to pray –

            It’s time for me to nourish the body so I will leave off for now –
            I hope your guys’ day is fantastic!

            here’s my email if you want to use that instead of continuing here – s b a n d a l o s at m s n d o t c o m
            which I’m sure the NSA already has in their data banks in Utah
            (I was a foreman/superintendant for a company for most of the 80’s and into the early 90’s – they took up abandoned railroad track across the US – that had it’s corporate headquarters in SLC – so I was in and out of that town quite a bit during those years – 1505 S. Redwood Rd SLC UT Not a very nice part of the Rocky Mountains in my humble opinion – ugly – but I may be spoiled having lived in Montana and now Colorado – still dreaming of sand and surf though 😀

            Much Love from Above Sister Dear!

            😀

        • (Another) Paul says:

          jmvpho wrote:

          I would also like to say that we have at least 3 documented statements by early church fathers, Justin Martyr, Cyril, bishop of Jerusalem and Julius who all mention the census documents available in their time. They were searched and found amazingly that Yeshua was born December 25. This is readily available for anyone to read but I’m not sure why it is being ignored.

          Perhaps you could provide a link to these sources (my searches online didn’t turn up anything compelling). Cyril of Jerusalem and Pope Julius were 4th century, so they’re post-Constantine and of no more weight than the 4th century figures quoted in the article. …But I’d be highly interested in any solid proof you can adduce that Justin Martyr believed Christ to have been born on December 25th.

          • Mark says:

            I have one document and that is Bible. Why do you need the hearsay of men when you have the “source”? This whole debate is about the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 3. There is concise and historical proof of Jesus birth, and His conception. Just study the course of Abia. For all of you towering intellectuals who hide behind much words and think that somehow your different than the “rest” of us…? I got news, your pontifiking will bring you no closer to the truth, unless it is revealed to you by God. I will post this study one more time and see who reads. Not that “I” and I hate that word, have a corner on the market for intelligence but just a lot of hard work and 32 years of study under EW Bulinger.
            The Lineage and birthdate of Jesus
            Jesus lineage comes thru Mary not Joseph as Joseph was not the father of Jesus. He was just an in-law or (as was supposed) Elisabeth and Mary were cousins and their mothers were sisters who were of the daughters of Aaron a Levite. Luke 1-5. Mary’s genealogy is in Luke 3 and her name is not mentioned because Jewish tradition did not mention the woman in genealogy, so Joseph, as was supposed, meaning: (in-law) is put in place of Mary. Mary’s Father Heli or Eli was a Jew so Jesus was half Jew and half Levite, the King line and the Priest line and God All in One Jesus Christ.
            The Genealogy in Matthew is of Joseph the “legal” Father of Jesus The genealogy in Luke is of Mary the “biological” mother of Jesus. Thus the question as to why the Genealogy’s listed in the two Gospels are different.
            Zacharias the father of John the Baptist and Elisabeth’s husband was a Levitical priest on the Course of Abia. 2 times a year. Dec. 6-13 and June 13-19. At his return from his Levitical duties on around June 22 to 25 John the Baptist was conceived. Six months later Elisabeth met with Mary in Nazareth the night after Jesus was conceived around Dec. 25th.
            Luke 1:
            4 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
            25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.
            26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
            27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
            And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
            36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
            37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.
            Twice it is said that six months passed by after the conception of John the Baptist on June 22-25 which 6 months later is Dec. 25th the day Jesus was conceived. Nine months later he was born on Sept 29.This is not rocket science, just read it with understanding. December 25th is the day our LORD became flesh and Sept 29 was the day HE was born. September 29 should be celebrated just as December 25.
            Gabriel announced that Mary and Elisabeth were cousins and that Elisabeth would conceive John and that Mary would conceive Jesus.
            Mark Vaughn 12-23-13

          • Mark says:

            One more time…….These dates are right here for all to see…dig for yourself and try to prove me wrong:
            Read with understanding and know these dates are locked in.
            , 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

            “THE COURSE OF ABIA” (Luke 1:5 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

            This was the eighth of the priestly courses of ministration in the Temple (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] [, and occurred, as did the others, twice in the year.

            The “Courses” were changed every week, beginning each with a Sabbath. The reckoning commenced on the 22nd day of Tisri or Ethanim (Appendix 51. 5). This was the eighth and last day of the Feast of Tabernacles = the “Great Day of the Feast” (John 7:37 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , and was a Sabbath (Leviticus 23:39 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)]

            The first course fell by lot to Jehoiarib, and the eighth to Abia or Abijah (1 Chronicles 24:10 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)]

            Bearing in mind that all the courses served together at the three Great Feasts, the dates for the two yearly “ministrations” of Abiah will be seen to fall as follows:

            The first 9 ministration was from 12-18 Chisleu = December 6-12.

            The second ministration was from 12-18 Sivan = June 13-19.

            The announcement therefore to Zacharias in the Temple as to the conception of John the Baptist took place between 12-18 SIVAN (June 13-19), in the year 5 B.C. After finishing his “ministration”, the aged priest “departed to his own house” (Luke 1:23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] , which was in a city10 in “the hill country” of Juda (verse 39).

            The day following the end of the “Course of Abia” being a Sabbath (Sivan 19), he would not be able to leave Jerusalem before the 20th.

            The thirty miles journey would probably occupy, for an old man, a couple of days at least. He would therefore arrive at his house on the 21st or 22nd. This leaves ample time for the miraculous “conception” of Elizabeth to take place on or about 23rd of SIVAN 11 – which would correspond to June 23-24 of that year. The fact of the conception and its date would necessarily be known at the time and afterwards, and hence the 23rd SIVAN would henceforth be associated with the conception of John Baptist as the 1st TEBETH would be with that of our Lord.

            But the same influences that speedily obscured and presently obliterated the real dates of our Lord’s “Begetting” and Birth, were also at work with regard to those of the Forerunner, and with the same results. As soon as the true Birth day of Christ had been shifted from its proper date, videlicet: the 15th of Tisri (September 29), and a Festival Day from the Pagan Calendars substituted for it (videlicet: December 25), then everything else had to be altered too.

            Hence “Lady Day” in association with March 25 (new style) became necessarily connected with the Annunciation. And June 24 made its appearance, as it still is in our Calendar, as the date of “the Nativity of John the Baptist”, instead of, as it really is, the date of his miraculous conception.

            The Four “Quarter Days” may therefore be set forth thus: first in the chronological order of the events with which they are associated, videlicet:

            The conception of John Baptist on or about 23rd SIVAN = June 24 in the year 5 B.C.
            The Gennesis (Begetting) of our Lord on or about 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
            The birth of John Baptist on or about 4th-7th NISAN = March 25-28 in the year 4 B.C.
            The birth of our Lord on or about 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

            or, placing the two sets together naturally:-

            {The conception of John 23 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] rd SIVAN = June 23-24 in the year 5 B.C.
            {The birth of John 7 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] th NISAN = March 28-29 in the year 4 B.C.
            {The Miraculous “Begetting” 1st TEBETH = December 25 in the year 5 B.C.
            {The NATIVITY 15th TISRI = September 29 in the year 4 B.C.

          • Mark says:

            Correction: Jesus Genealogy is found in Luke chapter one under Mary. Sorry

    • James says:

      ^^^Says she gets it. Doesn’t get it^^^

  14. Faye says:

    I feel that those who are still promoting “Christmas” are just too gutless and fearful to stand up for the truth. I heard one minister say that even if he was convinced of possible heathen roots of Christmas, he would not rob his grandchildren of the fun of the season.! thereby propagating the lie!

    • jmvpho says:

      What lie? Was He not born? Have you read the statements by the early church fathers that indicate their search of the census records available to them? They confirm Dec 25, did you know that? And when you gather as a group of Believers, do you forbid certain subjects to be celebrated because you’re possibly not on the exact date in history that it happened? What other subject do you condemn for this same reason?

      People have lost the ability to reason when it comes to Christmas. It wreaks of a demonic spirit like nothing I have seen before. If you don’t want to participate in the “good tidings of great joy that will be to all men” then by all means, don’t. But stop condemning. The hate from your side is the real problem.

    • look2thesky says:

      Thank You Faye!

      Your willingness to stand for the truth even in the midst of immediate attack is beautiful!

      All th best!

  15. Bill says:

    Great stuff here! Thank you Cris! Another piece of the puzzle falls into place!

  16. Lisa says:

    I have to say that I think this information is spot on. I was really thinking on this subject tonight and got some extra info from the Holy Spirit. I’m sure you know how the Bible is full of stories that have more than one meaning? There always seems to be so much more below the surface of a story, and I was thinking on that. The Holy Spirit then showed me that if 9 months from the moment Jesus was conceived was his birthday (December 25th) then a secondary meaning would be that — life does indeed BEGIN at the moment of conception! It would be another confirmation that you are not just a mass of tissue or whatever else the abortion-loving liberals like to say. But that life begins at that very moment. I know it’s not really relative to the post but wanted to share the news! 🙂

    • mark says:

      Lisa, Truth will always prevail to a Christian that is open to the Holy Spirit. I always use the example of John leaping in the womb of Elisabeth when she and Mary met the night after the Immaculate conception as an example of when life begins. we are all precious in God’s eyes

      • Lisa says:

        I agree Mark. There are indeed other examples in the Bible of life beginning at conception. I just happened to stumble upon another one of them. I’m sure my post was probably “old news” to most people and they might be wondering why I’m a bit over the top with excitement. I am still a fairly new Christian and having the Holy Spirit makes me get all excited at times. And I do get the occasional odd look now and again…

  17. Matt says:

    Truth or tradition? It’s time to let go of tradition and live in truth.

    Blessings.

  18. Justin F says:

    (excuse the caps and asterisks, no bold or italics) You are missing the point, and misrepresenting the original article. The BA article is mainly addressing possible origins for the DATE December 25th, to which it concludes “How did December 25 become Christmas? We cannot be entirely sure.”

    In the comment about Tertullian’s calculation, Mr. McGowan only shows that Tertullian reported the calculation of the *crucifixion* to be March 25. Thus, LATER Christians started to celebrate March 25 as the *conception*, from which MAYBE even later Christians derived the December birthdate.

    “The earliest mention of December 25 as Jesus’ birthday comes from a mid-FOURTH-century Roman almanac that lists the death dates of various Christian bishops and martyrs.”

    As the BA article says, this is just a recent theory: “This view was first suggested to the modern world by French scholar Louis Duchesne in the early 20TH century and fully developed by American Thomas Talley in more RECENT years.”

    “Yet the actual date MIGHT really derive more from Judaism—from Jesus’ death at Passover, and from the rabbinic notion that great things might be expected, again and again, at the same time of the year—than from paganism.”

    But, you are trying to stretch this theory to imply A.) this is “evidence” that the date is not based on pagan celebrations, and worse B.) that there are no pagan origins to the RITUALS of Christmas, to which the BA article speaks many times:

    “More recent studies have shown that many of the holiday’s modern trappings DO REFLECT PAGAN CUSTOMS borrowed much later, as Christianity expanded into northern and western Europe. **The Christmas tree**, for example, has been linked with late medieval druidic practices. This has only encouraged modern audiences to assume that the date, too, must be pagan.”

    “From the mid-fourth century on, WE DO FIND Christians deliberately adapting and Christianizing PAGAN festivals. A famous proponent of this practice was POPE Gregory the Great, who, in a letter written in 601 C.E. to a Christian missionary in Britain, recommended that local pagan temples not be destroyed but be converted into churches, and that pagan festivals be celebrated as feasts of Christian martyrs. At this late point, Christmas may well have acquired some pagan trappings. But we don’t have evidence of Christians adopting pagan festivals in the third century, at which point dates for Christmas were established. Thus, it seems unlikely that the date was simply selected to correspond with pagan solar festivals.”

    “The extrabiblical evidence from the first and second century is equally spare: There is no mention of birth celebrations in the writings of early Christian writers such as Irenaeus (c. 130–200) or Tertullian (c. 160–225). Origen of Alexandria (c. 165–264) goes so far as to mock Roman celebrations of birth anniversaries, ****dismissing them as “PAGAN” practices—a strong indication that Jesus’ birth was not marked with similar festivities at that place and time. As far as we can tell, Christmas was not celebrated at all at this point.****”

    “Elements of the festival that developed from the fourth century until modern times MAY WELL DERIVE FROM PAGAN traditions.”

    Rome blatantly does to Christianity exactly what the worst of Israel’s kings did to Judaism. They created a monarchy where there is no earthly central authority. Then, Pontifex Maximus left the high places up, slapped a cheap label and a coat of paint over them, and merged the old pagan practices with ‘new’ Catholic rituals. Here you have a “theory” from a Roman Catholic priest trying to justify (and make a red herring of) at least the date of Christ Mass, because they surely couldn’t cover up the origin of the myriad ‘christianized’ pagan rituals.

    No point in beating around the bush now. After the military and political power of Rome (who Peter called Babylon) co-opted the church, the apostate Roman Catholic church was born. Its theology is filled with false doctrines, and they made no attempt to hide their adoption of all forms of paganism in their goal of retaining the power of the state religion. This beast today still embodies the spirit of Babylon the harlot and Christians would do well to steer clear of all traces of her worldly enticements.

    Not superstitions or sacraments, not works or institutions, all we need is Christ.

    • look2thesky says:

      Thanks for sharing the facts Justin –
      Hopefully others will be prompted to look into church history as far as the things you brought up and pointed out relating to -“christmas” & “catholisim” – and once seeing the truth of these matters for themselves will choose to leave the nonsense and the lies behind –
      Once again, Thank You!

  19. Faye Rod says:

    Could someone give me a reason why so many believe The Church will not be raptured before The Tribulation?
    Paul says we are saved from the wrath to come and the Tribulation is also known as Jacobs Trouble, a time of great testing for the Jews. This is an honest question to hear other opinions.

    • Mark says:

      Faye this is for you. and for everyone here:

      THE END OF THIS EARTH AGE

      The second coming of Jesus Christ is the most important event in modern times. This generation is the generation of the fig tree, Matthew 24-32 and Jeremiah 24. And we are the last generation. Never before in the history of the Christian church has this occurred as the Jews have taken back rightful ownership of their homeland after exile for thousands of years. In history, 1948 is a major benchmark; and, the promise of His coming will be fulfilled in this, the last generation.

      …and in those days before the tribulation the church would be raptured.

      After an extensive search in God’s word, I can’t find these words anywhere. It’s amazing how this doctrine has been fabricated with not one; I REPEAT not one direct reference to a pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. To say that there is a difference between the “appearing” and the “coming” of Jesus is silly, I can’t think of another word for it. When somebody comes to you, they have to appear to you. How can they come to you unless they appear? How can they appear to you unless they come to you? See how silly that argument is? God is ubiquitous, He doesn’t need to appear or come to accomplish His will, when we see Him, it will be in our spiritual bodies and a “coming” or an “appearance” will have no bearing on our gathering back to Him. The rapture is a moot point when looked at in the mind of the spirit. When He returns with all the saints (clouds) it will only be possible to see Him in the spirit body, in the moment in the twinkling of an eye all will be changed when His feet touch the Mount of Olives.
      Second Timothy 4:1 is often used as a basis for three appearances, or ages, when the subject is preaching the word of God in due season. It’s funny, if you go down to verse 3 of the same chapter it says:
      3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
      4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
      5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
      The rapture is a fable, dreamed up by men just as it says in the prior verses
      Even if the subject were three appearances, there is no mention of chronology, post or pre-tribulation whatsoever.
      The same goes for 1st Thessalonians 4:17, no mention of chronology, post or pre either
      It is Paul’s explaining where the dead are and our gathering back to Him and no mention of when it takes place.
      Here is another scripture taken out of context by pre- trib people,1st Thessalonians 5:9
      9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
      This verse is often used as proof we will be gone before Gods wrath is poured out. Again, no chronology mentioned. There is a big difference between the wrath of God and the tribulation of satan and the beast system. The wrath of God will last about 5 minutes, the tribulation of satan will last for five months as it states in Rev9:10 and will defiantly come before the wrath of GOD. I can’t stress how important it is to distinguish the difference between the tribulation of satan and the wrath GOD. God’s wrath will not be poured out upon His children who are under the blood of Jesus.
      Another verse that is used to suggest the church will be gone before the tribulation is Revelation 3:
      10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
      Notice the words: “all the world.” There is no separation between the world and those who keep the “word of my patience.” The hour of temptation WILL come upon ALL OF THE WORLD and this hour of tribulation will last five months as it states in Rev.9:5. Who are the ones that keep the WORD of HIS Patience? Read Rev. 2:9 and chapter 3 and you will find the two churches that taught the real truth. You will also find out what they taught and that those of the church of Smyrna were delivered up to death (anti-christ) for ten days as Mark 13:9 says.
      To me this is a solid proof that Smyrna and Philadelphia will be here during the tribulation of anti-christ.
      Another verse twisted out of context to prove pre-trib rapture is Revelation 4:1,
      After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
      What does the word “I” mean? ….I think I I think I,,…. sorry. John is “I”, not the church, the church has absolutely no article here in these verses.
      Revelation 11:12 is the only rapture mentioned in God’s word and the word’s “come up hither” are mentioned again. This is the account of the two witnesses.
      Again, even if Revelation 4:1 were “the church”, there is no chronology or pre-trib rapture spoken of whatsoever.
      Another interpretation of the pre- trib rapture believers that is out in left field is their interpretation of second Thessalonians chapter 2:
      7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
      The subject is satan and his appearing established in verse 1 and Paul is saying: It ain’t gonna happen till that wicked man of sin be revealed:
      2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
      2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
      3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
      To say: “he who lets” is the church or the holy spirit is not correctly reading.
      Who is this “He who lets”, Its Michael in Revelation 12:7:
      7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
      8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
      9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
      Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Referring to the fallen angels who left their habitation in Heaven and married women.
      These fallen angels will be cast to the earth again just as satan himself. Look in Genesis 6 to see how it was, Fallen angels had children with the daughters of men and giants were born .These fallen angels will be cast to the earth again just as satan himself. The earth is not prepared for this at all and the Christian church is “a sleep at the wheel”.
      There is only one second coming and He is coming back here on the Lord’s day and He will rule and reign for 1000 years with a Rod of Iron as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

      You would think the most important event in modern times (The end of The World) would be clearer in God’s word and it is, but it has been twisted and turned into this any moment doctrine called the rapture. Nowhere in God’s word is there a direct reference to pre tribulation rapture and just try to prove me wrong. All are inferred and are based on faulty interpretation, with no time line or chronology. This fact cannot be overlooked in critical analysis. First Thessalonians 4:17 says nothing about WHEN the so called rapture will take place. On the other hand there is a direct reference to a post tribulation gathering back as Jesus says: “Immediately after the tribulation shall be the coming of the Lord” in Matthew 24:29-30, Mark13:24-26 and Luke 21:27. In all of these verses Jesus Himself is explaining the chronology of His return and nowhere is there a reference to a pre tribulation rapture, in fact He states just the opposite. He says, immediately after the tribulation shall you see the coming of the Son of man. How do you get past that? …… If Jesus said it, I believe it…period.

      When Jesus returns all flesh will die. This earth age of flesh and carnality will end. No flesh and blood will make it to Eternity. Jesus is coming back with the Saints and we will gather back to Him as every knee will bow in the greatest gathering of God’s children since the first world age.

      Have you ever thought how would it be possible for the entire world to see the return of Christ at one time? God can do anything; He doesn’t need to return where He is already, He is ubiquitous, how can you return to where you already are? Yet, just for us, His children, He at the end of this age will make a glorious return with all the Saints who have died in the past believing in Him, return with Him. I believe the Second Coming will be unlike anything we could imagine in the flesh. To me that’s why the rapture is so carnal in its approach to the gathering back or second coming. In essence the rapture is an over spiritualization of the death of the flesh. There is absolutely no biblical reference to a “rapture” or, flesh bodies flying in the sky or disappearing on a massive scale. Death, or gathering back, can be described as being snatched away by force or in a sense we gather back to Him when the flesh dies. The rapture doctrine looks at the Second Coming from a carnal mindset and is more of a Hollywood movie script rather than biblical reality. When Jesus returns with all the saints, all flesh will die, period. We will be changed, in the moment in a twinkling of an eye. His feet will touch the Mount of Olives and a new age will begin. There is no need for rapture, Christ is coming back here.

      There is no doubt that the great imitator (Satan) is already at work planning his strategy to deceive the Bride into thinking he is the Bridegroom and the rapture is his end time strategy. The current any moment doctrine, or rapture as it is called was started as a rumor by two preachers who were at her bedside when Margaret McDonald had a dream where she herself said she felt the evil. It quickly spread as the current doctrine we have today. The book, The Incredible Cover Up, by Dave McPherson, traces the entire history of this evil dream.

      Every scripture used to try to prove this evil dream was from God is such a far reach from reality it’s absolutely consistent with delusion that is actually sent by God,
      II Thessalonians 2. Every scripture used is twisted out of context to prove this false doctrine, just like Satan did with Jesus in the wilderness. The books that have helped this false doctrine became mainstream and have done much damage to the truth and “Left Behind” by Tim Lahay, The “Late Great Planet Earth” by Hal Lindsey and other books have made millions of dollars selling out God. With Images of people disappearing all over the world and planes, busses, trains, cars and everything else crashing and all of the innocent people perishing including children. This in itself would constitute a great tribulation. Imagine all of the scenarios that would unfold as a result of this massive disappearance. Sounds more like a movie rather than the reality of GOD’s word. To counter the fact that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God the accounts of this rapture scenario have changed as of late they say they will be translated at some point between here and there in the rapture and that’s why all the people disappeared on the earth.

      The movies “Left Behind” and “Late Great Planet Earth” show an earlier version of this scenario. So their views are changing to fill in the gaping holes in their logic. The fact is the Christian church did not teach a pre-tribulation rapture for the first 1800 years of Christianity. This doctrine has mainly been pushed by Pentecostal, Charismatic, Calvary and others and have now become mainstream doctrine in the church. The same logic in their views of the gifts of the spirit applies to their views on the second coming and is flawed in their interpretation. Gifts of the spirit are not operated in the flesh nor discerned in the flesh. The same goes for the Word of God.

      Correct interpretation has gone out the window to make room for a more spiritual you. There is no escaping the coming events that will bring the Lord back to this earth. Since the beginning, we as Christians have had to endure persecution and the wrath of Satan and this generation is no different. The wrath of God won’t be directed at us if we are in Jesus. The gospel must be preached into all the world and then the end will come and no sooner. We have to be here to do that.

      PARABLES ABOUT END TIMES

      John 2:18 and II Thessalonians 2:7 are closely tied together and Satan in his role as antichrist is the main clue as to how the Second Coming will take place. Antichrist means Instead of Christ, he will claim to be Jesus. If Christians are gone in rapture there would be no need for Satan to play this role. The return of Jesus is explained in carnal terms referring to us as the bride, chased virgin, espoused to one husband and so on and are about us remaining faithful to God through the tribulation or deception of antichrist. If we are gone there is no need to remain faithful.

      Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 all speak of the end of this age and are parables hidden to the unlearned. Pray that your flight be not in the winter: don’t be harvested out of season. Or wait for the true Jesus.

      The ten virgins in Matthew 25 are about God’s children that have enough oil or truth to endure until the end. After being away for 2000 years and Jesus comes back and His bride is with child, He wouldn’t be happy would He? The next verse explains what will happen if you worship Satan. You will “give birth” to a spiritual child out of adultery with none other than Satan.

      Mark 13:12

      Now the brother shall betray the brother to death SATAN, and the father the son: and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. (or Satan).

      Matthew 24:19

      And woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days.

      This means you have been in bed spiritually with Satan himself and giving suck means you have been nursing along his work even turning in your relatives in to death (Satan) thinking he is Jesus.

      Matthew 24:40

      Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

      Matthew 24:39-41, Luke 17:36

      Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. The subject is Noah’s flood. Who is taken you ask? The people were swept away in the flood, the one taken is the one taken in the flood and the one left is the one that got on the Ark. How can you twist this around and say the one taken is raptured. This is a total fabrication of what is being said as rapture proponents do in every interpretation of scripture concerning the rapture.

      Matthew 24:41
      Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. This is another scripture that is totally taken out of context. The one taken is swept away in the flood and the one left is safe on the Ark. How can you get a rapture out of this?
      These are all parables and must be understood as such. Jesus is talking about His return the Groom and we the bride and that is why you see all these carnal terms to be applied in the spiritual sense. To fully understand what is being said you must understand the Jewish wedding ceremony. We are to remain faithful until the true Groom returns.

      You have to be here on earth for these scriptures to be true.

      • Matthew 24:1 Gospel to all the world
      • Matthew 24:9 Delivered up to be afflicted
      • Matthew 24:13 Endure till the end
      • Matthew 24:15 Abomination desolation Satan
      • Matthew 24:20 Flight not in winter
      • Matthew 24:22 Days shortened for elect
      • Matthew 24:23 Lo here is Christ
      • Matthew 24:24 Very elect deceived
      • Matthew 24:26 He is there or secret chambers
      • Matthew 24:29 Immediately after tribulation
      • Matthew 24:30 ALL the tribes
      • Matthew 24:31 The elect from four corners
      • Matthew 24:32 Parable fig tree

      Mark 13 and Luke 21 all reiterate the Second Coming. This is not just for the Jews but all

      The pre-tribulation people use the eminent return of Jesus as a big reason as to why they should be ready and live a holy life because He could return at any moment. The same goes for death and we can be snatched away at any time. What about all the people before the generation of the fig tree? What about all the people before the appearance of antichrist? They had no hope of the eminent return of Jesus because these events in
      II Thessalonians 2:3 had not occurred. It states that man of sin must be revealed (Satan) before Jesus can come back in His second return. No Christian could in past times or now have any expectation of Jesus eminent return. To say right now, “He could come back at any moment” is just not sound doctrine. The “Man of sin” (Satan) must first be revealed. Paul could not have made it any clearer. Have you seen Satan in person lately? The world is being transformed for Satan’s entrance as the false Jesus and many will be deceived. He will come to deceive Christians, not non Christians, as they are already deceived. Christians have to be here on this earth for this to Occur. If their gone in pre-tribulation rapture, this couldn’t happen.

      Ezekiel teaches of a time when superpreachers would teach Gods children to fly to save their soul. No other time in history have we had a teaching like the rapture that in essence teaches people to fly. Listen as Ezekiel speaks to the whole House of Israel where ever they are :

      Ezekiel, 13:20

      Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.” All of Ezekiel 13 should be read to get the full context. There is a striking resemblance to the churches of today.

      Our motivation as Christians should be out love for our Father and wanting to please Him because of that love. We as a generation are the generation of the FIG TREE and have been chosen to stand and fight against Satan in this the final battle. What a privilege!

      As in any war, to plan a battle you have to know your enemy; and when you fight, you need all your best warriors (People armed with two edged sword). We are here in this last generation to stand up for God, not run and hide. I would rather be prepared for the tribulation and it not happen rather than being prepared for the rapture and it not happen. If you think you will be gone in the rapture and it doesn’t happen, you will be deceived easily and could be in danger of losing your soul if you worship Satan. This is the final battle; Satan is prepared, are you?

      Acts 3:20-21

      20 “And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:”

      21 “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

      “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Hebrews 9.28 ), “And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming” (1John 2:28). “Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels”

      II Thessalonians 1:6-7

      “And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven” (Mark 13:26-27). It is this gathering of believers to the Lord, as he is returning, that is often misinterpreted as proof of a coming rapture

      Also revealed in scripture is the length of the tribulation: Tribulation shortened to one hour or five months….

      Revelation 3:10

      Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the entire world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. This doesn’t mean they will be raptured, it means they will be spared from the wrath to come. Notice it says, ALL THE WORLD!

      Revelation 9:5, Revelation 17:12 and Revelation 3:9

      And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented FIVE MONTHS: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

      And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men FIVE MONTHS.

      Revelation14:7

      Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the HOUR of his judgment is come: and worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

      Jesus again is talking about His Second Coming; there is only one “Last Day!”

      • “And this is the Father’s will who has sent me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose none, but should raise him up again at the last day.” (John 6:39)
      • “And this is the will of him who sent me…that everyone who sees the Son and believes on Him may have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day”. (John 6:40)
      • “No man can come to Me, except the Father who has sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:44)
      • “Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:54) No mention of a rapture, only the “last day”

      Revelation 17:12

      And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings ONE HOUR with the beast. Check out this word “hour” and you will find it not to be a literal hour.

      These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
      The chosen and faithful are the saints that are with Him, they’re not gone.

      Satan will also be released again after the millennial rein Of Christ Revelation 20:7 to test Gods children again, If you can believe this you should be able to believe it happened before in the first world age in the great Katabole). This is a Greek word meaning: “Casting down” or “Overthrow”. (Strong’s concordance #2602 and 2598). Appendix 146 in the Companion Bible by EW Bulinger.

      Satan and his angels will be cast down to this earth again Rev 12-9 and it will be as the days of Noah. The flood of lies has already been cast out after the whole world. Are you in Gods army? Or Satan’s army.

      IF YOU ARE A PASTOR-TEACHER-LEADER AND YOU CAUSE ONE OF GOD’S CHILDREN TO WORSHIP ANTI-CHRIST WITH THIS FALSE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE, THEIR BLOOD IS ON YOUR HANDS. IF THE RAPTURE DOESN’T TAKE PLACE, CAN YOU IMAGNE HOW THESE POEPLE WILL FEEL WHEN THEY KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN LIED TO. YOU SHOULD BE PREPARING YOUR FLOC K FOR THE COMING DECEPTION OF ANTI-CHRIST INSTAED OF TEACHING THEM TO FLY AWAY. WE ARE RAPIDLY APPROCHING A TIME OF GREAT TURMOIL. WE WILL SEE A ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT TAKING PLAC E AND THE DISMANTLEING OF AMERICA WHICH IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. ARE YOU PREPARING YOUR FLOCK FOR THIS GREAT UPEVIL? IF NOT YOU ARE FAILING THEM AND ALSO GOD AS WELL.

      If you have read this than you are now responsible for what you do with the knowledge that has been revealed to you. This is not just a debate about pre or post tribulation, it’s about people’s eternal soul.
      There is a great sifting taking place and only the Churches that teach as Smyrna and Philadelphia will be in tact….
      Godspeed

      Revelation 2:20

      The Church of Thyatira lets false doctrine from outside the church in to their midst. I believe this is representative of the churches today letting in this false doctrine of the rapture. The way it was started and grew has Satan’s M-O all over it. For the first 1800 years of church history there was no belief in the rapture.

      Prepare yourself with the Word of God and the word of your testimony.

      This is it…….The day of the LORD is at hand.

      • Faye says:

        I am always very wary of people who need a positively excessive amount of words to push their point. I find just when I think I have it all worked out, I am shown another aspect that messes up my little theory. The Jews did not forsee “the gentile Church” in Scripture and I truly think we are not seeing the full picture yet either. One thing that is standing out to me is there will be NO Christians during or involved in the Millennial Reign of Christ. The Jews will rule and reign as kings and priests unto God during that 1,000 years. Rev 20:15 Christians are those written in the Book of Life and will be ushered into the new Earth.
        The “rapture” of The gentile Church, prior to the tribulation, will fulfill the times of the Gentiles. Judgment will then fall on The Jews and the unbelievers remaining on the earth. It will be the refining of the Jews.
        This is just saying! Food for thought!

        • mark says:

          Faye, the proof I gave is what You asked for and now you say that to much scripture makes you weary?
          The rapture is a fairy tail. Here is the one scripture that is all that is needed to prove the point but it is not enough for those under the illusion of the rapture. Matthew 24:29 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

          30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

          31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

          This a direct chronology of the end times given by Jesus Himself.

          • look2thesky says:

            Mark – Thank You!

            Man, your previous post – you know the one that made Faye “weary” is all inclusive and very well done –

            ThankYou again!

            I’m going to copy and paste it, your last post as well, and use it as reference when I’m asked to defend my position – And not to worry I’ll give you all of the credit – You’ve included pretty much everyting I’ve learned about the matter over the years and then some and did it in a concise, easy to understand way –
            Good Stuff my brother!

            You and yours will be included in my prayers from here on out –

            Thanks again!

            AndrewScottBandalos

          • Faye says:

            Mark
            You quoted Matt:24:29 which refers to Jesus returning to Earth where Jesus will stand on the mount he ascended from after The Crucifixion. The “rapture” is only for those who are LOOKING for his appearing. The Church or The Body of Christ are the ONLY ones looking for the second coming. The Scripture you are quoting refers to His visible return and all the tribes of the Earth shall mourn, they were not looking for His return. The angels will gather those “elect” or chosen Jews whom the angels have sealed and who will rule & reign with Him as priests & kings for a thousand years.
            The Church has no part in the Millennium. It was the spirit behind the message that was wearying for the job of the enemy is to wear down the saints. The Scriptures you quoted were mixed, some for the second coming and others for the end of the millennium, when satan will be released for a short time.
            I thank you for the effort you put into your opinion, may God bless you abundantly.

          • Mark says:

            Faye again you present the argument with no scriptural backing. You also present the view of the mainstream false churches view on dispensations of time, that are totally flawed in their interpretation.
            These are all from my library of personal studies and the work has already been done. Here is one on the three earth ages done by EW Bulinger. If you dont understand the 3 earth ages you will never rightly divide the word of God.

            THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD.”

            To arrive at the true meaning of this expression, we must note there are two words translated “foundation” in the New Testament:

            (1) themelios, and

            (2) katabole.

            The Noun, themelios, occurs in Luke 6:48, 49; 14:29. Acts 16:26. Rom. 15:20. 1Cor. 3:10, 11, 12. Eph. 2:20. 1Tim. 6:19. 2Tim. 2:19. Heb. 6:1; 11:10. Rev. 21:14, 19. It is never used of the world (kosmos) or the earth (ge). The corresponding Verb (themeliou) occurs in Matt. 7:25. Luke 6:48. Eph. 3:17. Col. 1:23. Heb. 1:10 and 1Pet. 5:10. The verb is only once used of the earth (ge). Heb. 1:10. A comparison of all these passages will show that these are proper and regular terms for the English words “to found”, and “foundation”.

            The Noun, katabole, occurs in Matt. 13:35; 25:34. Luke 11:50. John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. Heb. 4:3; 9:26; 11:11. 1Pet. 1:20. Rev. 13:8; 17:8; and the corresponding Verb (kataballo) occurs in 2Cor. 4:9. Heb. 6:1; and Rev. 12:10. A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Cor. 4:9, and Rev. 12:10) will show that kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.

            Consistency, therefore, calls for the same translation in Heb. 6:1, where, instead of “not laying again”, the rendering should be “not casting down”. That is to say, the foundation already laid, of repentance, &c., was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left — and progress made unto the perfection. Accordingly, the Noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the Verb, ought to be translated “disruption”, or “ruin”.

            The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Heb. 11:11) the word is connected with “the world” (Gr. kosmos. Ap. 129. 1), and therefore the expression should be rendered “the disruption (or ruin) of the world”, clearly referring to the condition indicated in Gen. 1:2, and described in 2Pet. 3:5, 6. For the earth was not created tohu (Isa. 45:18), but became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Gen 1:2 and confirmed by 2Pet. 3:6, where “the world that then was by the word of God” (Gen. 1:1), perished, and “the heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word “were created (Gen. 2:4), and are “kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment” (2Pet. 3:7) which shall usher in the “new heavens and the new earth” of 2Pet. 3:13.

            “The disruption of the world” is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Gen. 1:1 we have the founding of the world (Heb. 1:10 = themeliou), but in Gen. 1:2 we have its overthrow.

            This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times, is associated with the Preposition apo = from (Ap. 104. iv) seven times, and with pros = before (Ap. 104. xiv) three times. The former refers to the kingdom and is connected with the “counsels” of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret. See Ap. 192) and is connected with the “purpose” of God (See John 17:24. Eph. 1:4. 1Pet. 1:20).

            Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Gen. 1:2, that “the earth became tohu and bohu (i.e. waste and desolate); and darkness was on the face of the deep”, before the creation of “the heavens and the earth which are now” (2Pet. 3:7).

          • Mark says:

            Look to the sky Thank you. No need for credit brother just spread word about the great end time deception and use my material as much as you like……Jude 1:3 is my mantra….

        • Mark says:

          Faye, you that know Abraham was not a Jew? Sarah or Hagar right? Have you done your homework on this subject? The mainstream church has this subject totally wrong as well. What you have been taught is a counterfeit gospel. Sorry but it is true. Here is a study that I did, Im doing this for you out of love OK?
          The three seeds of Abraham and Isaac

          Through Abraham there were two seeds that became scattered all over the world. The seed of Isaac through Sarah and the seed of Ishmael through Hagar. Isaac was the son of promise and Ishmael the Illegitimate son from Sarah’s handmaiden Hagar an Egyptian woman. God blessed both sons but in Isaac was the promise of blessing to the world. Ishmael would be blessed but would be as a Wildman never attaining peace and would always be in a state of chaos.
          Enter Jacob and Esau, Isaac’s seed, Even in Rebecca’s womb they struggled and God said the elder would serve the younger and that she had two nations in her womb.
          So we have three nations, Ishmael would become all of the Arab nations and through Isaac would come Jacob who later would become Israel and Esau who would become Russia.
          We have Represented Islam, Christianity and Communism in the same order.
          All are religions and Socialism is a watered down form of Communism.
          All are the literal seed of Abraham. According to Christian theologians today. All of the twelve tribes of Israel are Jews as they claim in Revelation 7-1 through 17 addressing the 144,000. If this were true than the same logic would have to be applied to Ishmael and Esau, all Abrahams seed. There is no reasonable explanation for spiritualizing one and not the other. The twelve tribes of Israel were all from Jacob who had two wives and two handmaidens, Leah, Rachael and Bilhah and Zilpah. In no way can we assume that all of these children were all Jews, but that is what modern theologians assume. In revelation 7-1-17 these 144,000 are literal seed or posterity, not spiritual. Why would they need to be sealed if these verses were taking about spiritual Israel or Jews which are only one of the tribes? Even the seed of Promise through Isaac must accept Jesus as savior and come in to the knowledge of the truth, or Sealed and this includes the Jews. Enter literal seed or posterity through Abraham and enter spiritual or grafted seed through Jesus.
          The 10 tribes of Israel that were scattered around the world have been responsible for spreading Christianity. Ever wonder why America has been so blessed? We are literally made up of the house of Israel. Look at Great Britain, Ireland, Norway, Sweden, on and on, all have promoted Christianity and have been blessed for it.
          Matthew 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
          Today churches don’t even know who they are in America and I hear all the time “why isn’t America mentioned in the Bible” Isaiah 14 is a whole chapter that goes into detail about our nation The House of Israel and the nation of Israel are completely different.
          The House of Israel is the family of Jacoband the land of Israel is the nation of Israel, the home of the Jews.
          Ezekiel 3:4 Then He said to me: “Son of man, go to the house of Israel and speak with My words to them. 5 For you are not sent to a people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, but to the house of Israel, 6 not to many people of unfamiliar speech and of hard language, whose words you cannot understand. Surely, had I sent you to them, they would have listened to you. 7 But the house of Israel will not listen to you, because they will not listen to Me; for all the house of Israel are impudent and hard-hearted.

          • Faye says:

            Hi Mark
            I have to disagree with you on your idea that Israel spread Christianity around the world. The Jews were only given the Gospel of The Kingdom, which will be fulfilled in The Millennium, they never understood the Resurrection and The New Covenant and kept the Law and Temple worship until The temple was destroyed then they were dispersed. The Gospel given to the apostle Paul is what Christianity is founded on, based on the incarnation, death and resurrection of Jesus. You may be one of those who think the only difference between the Old & New Testaments/Covenants is a blank page in your Bible.! The Church in this dispension, is a completely separate entity to The Jew, until Jews accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and are baptized into The Body of Christ. Paul makes this point by saying if by any means he could cause jealousy between the two. Any country who supports Israel will be blessed. I think you are also caught up in “replacement” theology which is a pity. God said “My scepter shall not depart from Judah” all the way from Abraham the seed has been preserved until, from this line, The Saviour came. Paul says all Israel shall be saved.
            Blessings to you.

          • Mark says:

            The two tender twigs will be joined back together.
            [snip this comment is spam, no cut and paste please]

  20. Faye says:

    Hi Mark
    I have read Pember, The Book of Enoch and studied out Genesis Ch.6 but what I would like for you to do is say, in a nutshell, just what it is that you believe. What was your point?

    • Mark says:

      Faye the point was well within the body of information i gave you. I responded to your assumptions of dispensations of time and the fact that most mainstream scholars try to say all twelve tribes of Israel were Jews. They were only one of the tribes, there were 11 others. Your assumptions about the Millennium and the dispensation of grace are countered in the info I gave you, if you really read it.
      Happy and blessed new year to you

  21. James says:

    Wow. Just wow. You should re-title this post: Adventures in Missing the Point in the Comments Section

    On second thought, that’s a little long…

    What the heck is wrong with all you commenters?! Seriously, have you been spending so long reading YouTube comments that trolling has rubbed off on you?

    Cris had a simple point here, which was too show that early Christians, not pagans, were responsible for placing Jesus’ birthday on December 25th. That’s it. This is a common misconception, and one that unbelievers frequently use to show that we stole everything from paganism. This one simple fact will help me a lot in my conversations with skeptics, and if you stopped being overly critical for half a second, and if you ever spend any time talking to unbelievers about your faith, you might see the usefulness as well.

    Accurately or not, we celebrate Jesus’ birthday on December 25th, Christmas. When you figure out the actual exact date of Jesus’ birth then maybe the rest of us will think about celebrating on a different day, but for now, since we don’t know, how about we just keep celebrating His birth on the same day the rest of humanity does?

    You all should be ashamed of yourselves for the divisive, argumentative attitude you have demostrated here in response to a brother in Christ who is actually trying to do some good.

  22. Weather says:

    How wrong you are sir! Where do I start? How about the encyclopedia, there Saya the Roman god Mothra b day was dec 25th. Then you made a terrible historical calendar mistake….. rookies! The 6th month on God’s calendar would be September…..oops….. jews back then kept the scriptural calendar which is from Leviticus , the 1st of Nissan, not Tishri….. you do greatly err. GO Back and do better research.

  23. Weather says:

    Also, you forgot to mention, Jesus dying on the same day he,was Conceived would have maDE him 34 yrs old. All scholars agree, Jesus was about 33.5 yrs old when crucified. You also forgot to mention that shepherds would not be put tending their flocks in the winter, a Lil clue mentioned of the time of his birth. Oops! You also fail to account for the ignorance of so called scholars back in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, who went thru calendar changes and were also wilfully ignorant of how the jews count months….. those 1/2 converted pagans in tradition! They wanted to blend it all, didn’t they?

  24. tina o says:

    I am reading all of this…what a shame. First of all there is no heathen roots to Christmas which means …CHRIST-SENT. what makes any thing pagan is who is being worshiped. It is not trees, not anything or one but The Messiah. doesn’t matter what day. Unless you are worshipping someone other that the Lord that is the ONLY way it can become pagan……In the Torah, in Genesis God made the days and saw theta they were good. God made all vegetation and saw that they were good. God Himself sent the census, the angels, the shepherds, the wiremen via a miraculous event, a star to lead them and there is good proof (see The star of Bethlehem, daughters of zion ministries) that the wisemen came on December 25th with gifts of gold frankincense and myrrh. The first time presents were given. The airways are full of the gospel ringing with the news that Yeshua, the Messiah has been given to us, our sacrificial Lamb of God. Paganism are not days that belong to God, or objects that belong to God but WHO we worship. The Holy Bible says …Do not inquire how nations worship their Idols…..The bible says, Do not call what God made good, do not call it evil. You have to worship something other than the Lord of Glory to be a pagan. Celebrating His birth does not consist of that.

Trackbacks/Pingbacks

  1. […] haven’t posted to this site recently due to the Christmas holiday (defended at Logos) and because I am knee deep in co-writing my third book with Thomas Horn who is now a television […]

Speak Your Mind