More Skiba Nonsense: the Mosiac vs. New Covenant

GrACE preferenceRob Skiba ventured a reply of sorts to my previous post, calling me a “Jesuit-Inquistor.” Responding to my identifying the Mosaic covenant as obsolete, Skiba ardently defends the notion that New Covenant Christians are still under the Mosaic covenant. (note the grammar and spelling are Skiba’s):

Obesolete Mosaic covenant??? Are you referring to the Law that was written on our hearts and minds just 3 verses prior? Are you saying you subscribe to and support the validity of INSERTING words that don’t belong in the text:

“Covenant” simply is NOT in the Greek text. It was INSERTED into the English text by translators who ignore the “MAIN POINT” of Heb. 8:1, which was the “sum” of what had previously been written about in the preceding 4 chapters. To insert “covenant” as in “Mosaic Law” into verses 7 and 13 (as many a English Bible does), it totally nullifies verse 10 and completely ignores Hebrews 4-7. But that’s another whole topic in and of itself.

Rob is correct that the word “covenant” is not in verse 13 but don’t you wonder why nearly every major English translation saw fit to insert it for clarity?  Is it really a Jesuit conspiracy? Here is a text comparison of the major English translations:

NIV | ‎Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
‎‎NASB95 | ‎Heb 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
‎‎NRSV | ‎Heb 8:13 In speaking of “a new covenant,” he has made the first one obsolete. And what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.
‎‎ESV | ‎Heb 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
‎‎NKJV | ‎Heb 8:13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
‎‎KJV 1900 | ‎Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So has every Bible translation committee for the last 400 years gotten it wrong while Rob Skiba has it right?  It doesn’t seem likely. A strict literal translation is the Lexham English Bible and it renders:

“In calling it new, he has declared the former to be old. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is near to disappearing.”(Heb 8:13, LEB)

So what is the “it” that the author is calling “new” and what is the “former” that is old, obsolete, and near disappearing? In order to determine that, we first look to the context.  Simply read Hebrews 8 and it is very clear that the topic is the “new covenant.” The author cites  Jeremiah 31:31–34 in Hebrews 8:8-12.  Here is the LEB fully formatted:

Hebrews 8:10–13 (LEB)

10 For this is the covenant that I will decree with the house of Israel

after those days, says the Lord:

I am putting my laws in their minds

and I will write them on their hearts,

and I will be their God

and they will be my people.

11 And they will not teach each one his fellow citizen

and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’

because they will all know me,

from the least of them to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful toward their wrongdoings,

and I will not remember their sins any longer.”

13 In calling it new, he has declared the former to be old. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is near to disappearing.

In Greek, adjectives and nouns have grammatical gender (masculine and feminine) but it doesn’t necessarily imply anything about sexual gender but rather serves a grammatical function so that one can match adjectives to nouns and pronouns precisely. In this case, it proves helpful even though the context alone is pretty clear.

The word διαθήκη rendered “covenant” in verse 10 is singular and feminine. In order to verify that adjective καινός “new” in verse 13 refers back to “covenant” we verify that it matches in gender and number:  διαθήκην (fem. sing) –>  καινὴν (fem, singular). Likewise we verify that πρώτην “former” in verse 13 also matches in gender and number, it does: πρώτην (fem, singular).   Thus, in Greek the grammar along with context make it absolutely certain that verse 13 means “new covenant” and “former covenant.” That is why all of your English translations inserted it… no Jesuit conspiracy necessary. Verse 13 is obviously referring to the New Covenant as opposed to the former covenant (the Mosaic one.)  Indeed,  it is beyond question that this chapter teaches the Mosaic covenant is obsolete. So why accept Skiba’s yoke of slavery?

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. jmvpho says:

    your words:
    “So has every scholarlly translation committee for the last 400 years gotten it wrong while Rob Skiba has it right? It doesn’t seem likely.”

    My friend, it’s far worse than that! Every scholarly covenant keeping child of YHVH has had His eternal Torah that proclaimed His covenant and it’s fulfilling Messiah for 4300 years, while the last 1700 years has it wrong. And it does seem likely because the bible tells us this will happen, and was starting to happen in Paul’s day.

    Are you unwilling to take an honest look at the contradictions I’ve raised? Are you unwilling to realize that Paul was also described in his day as teaching lawlessness but when examined, no fault was found in him? Why would you continue teaching lawlessness then? Why are you lying about Paul?

    Are you unwilling to hear that if your Father says it or His Messiah says it, it’s gospel!!!!! Yet you’ll gladly throw it out if you think someone is stating something different. That, my friend, is a very “bent” view of who you’re worshipping. Can’t say it any plainer than that!

    • Bob says:

      answer is yes! Check out the Greek for ‘first day of the week’, a MAJOR stumbling for many, and food and meat in respect to kosher food in Can We Now Eat All Things? (1 Timothy 4), poor Christians have had the wrong plate served up for millenia, mainly coz they dont bother to search for themselves, they just reply on the pastor or minister to tell ’em so, have we not inherited lies, is a common bleat, one has to delve into Greek if not and better Hebrew and source the root of first mention for those crystal clear meanings

  2. Chuckles says:

    Cris asked:

    So why accept Skiba’s yoke of slavery?

    Exactly, yet people do. Why? Because the “mind of the flesh”–the unredeemable fallen flesh which resides in the unredeemed body–is hopelessly self-righteous. It hates faith. Faith is the opposite of law-keeping, and the faith-hating flesh must have something tangible to do, keep, follow, etc. Simply resting in the shed blood of Christ and walking in the Spirit is too much to ask of the flesh. It wants the credit for righteousness.

    Cris, I hope you don’t mind a YEC pre-tribber chiming in, but the woeful display of apostate legalism being posted by some here who are troubling you is too much. My neck is sore from the involuntary head shaking that has overtaken me while reading the tortured and contrived “exposition” going on by these legalists.

    Now, I’m no knee-jerk champion of scholasticism for its own sake, but the notion that the doctrine that Christians are “not under law” is an evangelical error–and that since the first century!–is a notion that would be laughable if it weren’t so deadly. What on earth else could Paul have meant when he said “you are not under law but under grace”?

    In the midst of all the linguistic gymnastics, the significance of Romans 7:1-6, wherein Paul tells us that through the death of Christ the believer has died to the law–and therefore the Law has no jurisdiction over him–is overlooked. So is the rest of chapter 7, where Paul lays out his own legal struggle and the solution to it: not Christ keeping the Law for him, but Christ paying the price that the Law demanded of Paul for Law-breaking; death. Coming to the realization that Christ had already paid the price for all his sin, Paul then points to the believer’s freedom from condemnation and the intended outcome of that freedom: that “the requirement of the Law [not Law-keeping itself, but a heart conformed to God’s will] might be fulfilled in us [not by us] who walk not according to the flesh [keeping the outward Law] but according to the Spirit [in faith].” In other words, The Holy Spirit (the One who is a Person) is the Christian’s guide, not the Law of Moses, let alone any other code of conduct.

    I should clarify something. By “the Law” I do not refer to the “ceremonial” (Levitical) law alone, or its priesthood, but to “the whole Law” which Paul told the Galatians they were required to keep in its entirety if they wanted to go on in their own righteousness; The Law of Moses, the Decalogue, the 10 Commandments and all that goes with them; the whole legal covenant. That is the Law by which “no flesh shall be justified”, and Paul tells us why: “for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20).

    Which brings us to the crux of the matter: The purpose of the Law. There are some here who seem to be saying “Yeah, we don’t have to keep the Law to be saved, but after being saved we must keep it.” But that is the Galatian heresy in a nutshell. “Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?” (Gal. 3:3.) It is these legalists who are teaching “the opposite of what Paul was saying.” Paul calls the Law “a ministry of death” (2nd Cor. 3:7). It was for such statements that Paul was accused of disparaging the Law, but Paul demonstrates that he did not disparage the Law when he said “the Law is good if one uses it lawfully…” (1st Tim. 1:8.) The lawful purpose of the Law is to reveal sin, not to make anyone righteous, either before or after conversion. Legalism is the attempt to use the Law unlawfully; for a purpose of which it was never meant.

    The Law is a gauge, a revealer of UN-righteousness. There is no life in it. It is a “tutor to lead us to Christ” (Gal. 3;24), but having believed, we are no longer under it in any sense. In fact, we are dead to it. (Romans 7:4-6 again.)

    Paul goes on to say that “law was not made for a righteous man…” (1st Tim. 1:9.) Christian believers are righteous by faith–believing in Christ’s shed blood–and such are to be led by the Spirit, not by the Law.

    Since the Christian life is to be lived “in the Spirit”–guided, led by the Spirit–it is no wonder Skiba has trouble with the concept, since he is anti-Trinitarian and therefore doesn’t know the real Holy Spirit from a case of mild heartburn. I hope that’s not true of the other legalists in our midst.

  3. jmvpho says:

    So sad……

    I don’t advise you to test your theory either. If you would just humble yourself for a moment. How about read the rest of the passage?

    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? GOD FORBID!

    Chuckles, you won’t be chuckling when you see Him if you will not surrender to HIS WORDS. Why in the world would He…when asked how to be in the kingdom…..would He have pointed to Torah?

    Why did He condemn 3 cities if they didn’t REPENT? According to your theory, all they have to do is believe some lawless nonsense.

    Do you think He is trying to deceive us? Is Y’shua telling us a lie and putting a yoke or burden on us? Or is the burden trying to follow the law without faith? Because following the law apart from faith means you must be judged (death) for even 1 sin.

    Chuckles, what is the biblical definition of sin?

    I assume if you answer this with the one and only definition you will find in scripture, then you’re going to have to realize that if Y’shua said “Repent” and Peter said (when asked “what must we do”) “Repent” and when Paul was asked what to do, he said “Repent”, are you honestly going to sit here and dig in your heels and spout some crazy doctrine you’ve heard in church, claiming you don’t have to repent (turn from lawlessness)…..just believe?

    Does James 2:14-24 mean anything to you?
    24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

    It is not obedience to the law that saves……it is FAITH mixed with obedience (that proves your faith) that saves.

    Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

    I’ve finally got it. I understand why all the stubborn stiff necked responses to the obvious differences in what our Savior says and what man is saying. Man wants the easy road. Man does not fear YHVH. Man, with a mind of the flesh, cannot submit to Torah (Rom 8:7). Man rests in an idol he has made in his own imagination and will not surrender to the words of scripture. He won’t even read the context to see if he has his understanding correct.

    So sad……..

    • jmvpho says:

      btw, chuckles,

      there is no such thing as a pre trib or mid trib or post trib rapture whisking Saints off to heaven. But there is a glorious resurrection which Paul spoke of “at the last trumpet” for those who are “still alive” and “left”. But no scriptural support for going to heaven………..only to the place where He is going when He returns.

      again…………all in the context………..if you surrender to the Words of scripture and not some nonsense of man.

      • JT says:

        Thank you for the context, I have looked at many of these passages in the past, and reading the entire chapter, the chapter before, and after really puts a completely different spin on everything you read, and deepens your understanding of things. I appreciate your posts, and pray and hope this can be more of iron sharpening iron. Pride goes before a fall, and I’ve been guilty of pride many times, but looking at something with humility changes the mind set from I have to be right, to being open, and receptive to God’s word being right not mans. I enjoy this type of healthy dialog and thank you for your posts. They are not lost on us.

        • jmvpho says:

          Praise YHVH, Creator of Heaven and Earth, the First the Last and the Only One who saves. Praise Him for opening your eyes as i know you feel as unworthy of this as i do. There is nothing in me that has deserved His mercy or has been honorable to receive His blessing but He saw fit several years ago to open my eyes as well.

          We left organized religion because of the apostate teaching that takes things out of context and lowers our Father to a “good ole buddy”. Not once would anyone get this impression if they came face to face with Him. But organized religion ignores that fact. They thumb their nose in His face and have the audacity to change His Word or tell people that Paul has that power. Paul DOESN’T have that power nor did he change the Word of YHVH. I’ve included the proof but the people here ignore it as well. THey are blind.

          It will be a sad day when He reveals Himself in the end like He did in the beginning. He is coming in wrath. He is coming in judgment. What was old will be new again and what was once done will be done again.

          Maybe then…….the people on this blog and in “church world” will humble themselves in His presence.

          • JT says:

            I too decided a few years ago to begin searching for answers myself, and not relying on church leaders to tell me their version of things. Once you do that, and read the “old” testament and use it to verify, and understand the “new” testament, it really changes a lot of things. If Christians truly believe that God is never changing then Paul who is a man could never have changed anything about God’s requirements to adhere to His laws, or His grace, and mercy. We are called to be a light to this world, and one more thing about James saying faith without works is dead, people have to realize he was talking about unbelievers. All he was really saying was those that truly believe will have “works” or changed behaviors. They will want to do the “works” of Christ by professing His word, and keeping His commandments. It’s in no way saying our works can save us, it’s saying by our believe, and salvation, and sanctification that “works” will be seen in that person. The two main religions that believe your own works can save you are catholics, and mormons, which is just dead wrong.

            One thing I’ve wondered, and been unable to find a suitable answer for is what happened to all those before Yeshua’s atonement when they died? I definitely do not believe in any form of universal salvation, but what had to be done before He came to attain salvation? Was following the law, and doing your best enough? I’ve asked before, but this is always something no one can answer very well, and no one may be able to since it’s something we may not know until we’re in Heaven.

          • jmvpho says:

            JT, I guess there’s no reply button to your comment/question. I agree with you about James. Works is simply the proof of a true born again person.

            As to your question, a few years back we did a search on where we go when we die. It is very interesting and it definitely blows away the common teaching. There is no one in “heaven” who has died apart from those mentioned in Rev 20. They either are there now (resurrected “each in his own turn”) following Y’shua’s first fruit resurrection (and as a result of martyrdom) or there will be a day in our future (during tribulation) when they are there (Rev 6 & 7)…..no one else though, except these martyrs and elders (Rev 20)

            Go on a search. You’ll find that when we die we are described as sleeping. Maybe there is cognitive activity like the story Y’shua told of Abraham’s bosom. But He also says Himself that no one has ascended. Acts 3 says that David hasn’t and that is definitely AFTER the resurrection so people can’t claim that Y’shua went to hades and brought them all to heaven. Dan 12 tells us that our resurrection is not until the last day.

            My belief is that all mankind is saved the exact same way……Faith…..regardless which side of the cross you lived on. Faith or belief to the point of behaving like you believe is saving faith. That is how the Saints in Hebrews are described.

            The MEANS by which we will one day actually BE SAVED is the atoning sacrifice of Y’shua. It is YHVH’s sovereign work to have decided when that sacrifice was to have taken place in history but it is once, for all those whom He calls whether 4000 years ago or now.

            That is why the church is teaching heresy. They say that there is a “new” way to salvation. Again, they are not reading the words of Y’shua. He never told anyone there would be a new way. He never told anyone that Torah was not the way (meaning the God breathed scriptures that carefully lays out the plan of salvation). He is simply the fulfillment of what Torah said was going to happen. He’s not a NEW doctrine.

            If people would just stop for a moment and quit spouting their nonsense long enough to actually deal with the errors and contradictions of what they’re saying, it might cause them to be humble and our Father open their eyes. But as you can see on this blog and in almost every evangelical church across the world, the doctrine is taken from verses out of context, additions, misinterpretations and assumptions. Any true student who knows their Father would fall on their face to think he might have spoken something wrong about YHVH. But not on this blog. Instead they just add another stiff necked, short cited, ignorant to the scriptures, article…..even when Paul, himself tells us he didn’t teach this heresy.

          • JT says:

            Yes strange there is no reply button afterwards. That seems to make more sense than most I’ve heard before thank you! That’s kind of how I always imagined it since Yeshua called Lazarus back to life after he died, and Saul had the “medium” conjure up Samuel’s spirit after he had died, but then you have those like Elijah, Enoch, and Moses that are said to be there as well. This opens up a whole different can of worms as to why evil forces were allowed by YHVH to have any power over the spirits of the dead, other than I supposed to confirm that Saul was wrong, and would die. Then there’s the sinner that was on the cross beside Him whom He told “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” I can only assume that to be Heaven.

            I agree there does not seem to be anything that points to a “new” way of salvation, even John the baptist never stated anything as being new, but only repeated the same things from the “old” testament telling sinners to repent, and turn to The Lord. Nothing ever said don’t worry Yeshua is coming, and you won’t have to worry about the laws of old anymore. He would’ve been stoned on the spot! The only thing I understand to have changed by His coming, and sacrifice was that the sacrificing to YHVH was no longer required, and Yeshua became our intercessor on our behalf to YHVH, and we pray to Him, rather than talking to a priest to confess our sins, or ask for help when needed etc. If the laws were to be done away with why did Yeshua Himself adhere to them. He was the example for us, just as He always was.

            I don’t understand not being open minded about YHVH’s word, as Christians you should have a desire to know the truth. I grew up closed minded, and believing everything I was taught in church, until I began to research the entire passages that were being taught the words from the pastors no longer held complete credibility. I pray more will look to God with fear, and humility. The time left is shorter than it was before, and we do not know the day of His coming!! It will come when no man expects it.

          • jmpho says:

            Not sure about Enoch but it does seem strange that his visions were recorded by himself. How does that happen if your visions are after you’ve already been “taken”? Did he send them back beamed aboard by Scotty?…..lol

            As for Elijah, there is something amiss. Seems to be a letter to a king AFTER the chariots came and got him. Supposed he was just transported somewhere else like Philip?

            Don’t have an answer about Moses. The dispute over his bones would make sense to me that he was resurrected but I also know that no one could possibly be resurrection prior to Y’shua. So I really have no clue. Were he and Elijah just brought back from “sleep” like Samuel?

            There’s a big difference in
            I tell you………………..today you will be with Me in paradise.

            and

            I tell you today…………………..you will be with Me in paradise.

            no punctuation in the the original text…….but makes all the difference in understanding.

          • JT says:

            I agree big difference in punctuation there, and that would make all the difference in the world. A lot of people love to claim baptism is essential for salvation, I always love to use that verse to prove it’s not a requirement at all. I never seem to get a response back on that one. lol

            I know it states the Enoch loved over 300 years, then he was walking with YHVH, and “Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”(Genesis 5:24) No idea where he was taken away too, but something to ponder. Have you ever studied the book of Enoch, and his writings of the nephilim etc.?

            Much to be studied, and learned in His word, I truly enjoy trying to find answers to so many questions, the more we are equipped with knowledge, the better we can fight off the enemy!

          • jmvpho says:

            yes, book of Enoch is definitely a page turner. I’ve listened to some of Rob Skiba’s videos as well….hence my ending up on this blog. He’s definitely interesting and entertaining.

            You know, if people will just surrender, YHVH will blow them away with His story. It’s incredible. It’s thrilling and it’s totally amazing how it connects every dot….something evangelical Christianity cannot do. Just the verse you mentioned where we read “I am YHVH and I change not” or “I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow”……..well NOPE, not so in the heretical story. That story is all about how He’s changed.

            Too bad for some stiff necked folks.

    • Chuckles says:

      jmvpho, you are a blatant illustration of who I was referring to in the 1st paragraph of my above post. You think you’re being “humble”, but you mix your supposed “obedience” to the Law with your supposed “faith”, which is the worst form of pride there is. By doing so, you have proclaimed your belief that Christ’s sacrifice was not enough; your works must be added.

      I no of no greater insult to the Spirit of grace.

      • jmvpho says:

        Then you’re allowing the doctrine of men to tell you a story instead of allowing the bible to proclaim the Truth. I didn’t say that it was faith plus works, the bible did. I didn’t say we must obey the law to sanctify ourselves, the bible did.

        Grace is only poured out on the repentant. One can only repent if there is a law that identifies sin. If you would just go to your bible and read (SURRENDER) to what it says, you would find that sin is “trangression of the law”.

        transgression of the WHAT?

        • Chuckles says:

          jmvpho said:

          I didn’t say that it was faith plus works, the bible did.

          Wrong. Here is what the Bible says:

          “…to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.” (Romans 4:5)

          I didn’t say we must obey the law to sanctify ourselves, the bible did.

          Wrong again. It is the Spirit Who sanctifies, not the Law. Here is what the Bible says:

          “The Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor.

          The Bible says we are not under the Law. “ARE not”. It does not say “were not, but are now again in order to be sanctified”. Sanctification is done by the Spirit, as the believer walks in the Spirit through faith, not through keeping external ordinances (the Law). (Romans 8:4, Gal. 3:3)

          Grace is only poured out on the repentant.

          Grace–God’s UN-merited favor–is poured out on those who are UN-deserving. “Otherwise, grace is no longer grace”.

          One can only repent if there is a law that identifies sin.

          Which gets back to the purpose of the Law: It is a “tutor”, a gauge, a ruler, an indicator of unrighteousness. It is not the remedy for unrighteousness.

          Paul did indeed say “May it never be!” to the straw man argument that being under grace means freedom to sin. But read the rest of Romans 6. Paul tells us that the remedy for sin is not adherence to the Law or any other external set of rules; Jewish or pagan. The remedy for sin is deliverance from the power of sin by the believer’s realizing he is dead to it (through the death of Christ) and by reckoning that fact to be so–applying it to oneself by faith. That is “SURRENDER to what [the Word of God] says”.

          jmvpho, it’s obvious that you are blinded, being under great bondage. It is you who are–in your own words–“allowing the doctrine of men to tell you a story instead of allowing the bible to proclaim the Truth.” I don’t expect to change your mind, so I won’t spend any more time or bandwidth with this back-and-forth. Just as it is the Spirit Who sanctifies, it is the Spirit Who gives understanding. I can only pray that He gives you understanding.

          • jmvpho says:

            So you’re theology is that if you “believe”, you are not only saved but sanctified as well and there is nothing you are to do because that would be “works”? The Holy Spirit does it all for you?

            In fact, you believe that if you actually DO any works of obedience like Torah instructs, you’re under bondage, misguided and blind? Possibly legalism?

            In fact, what you’re saying is that if we purposely don’t sin (follow Torah), we’re actually sinning by trying not to sin because that would be works?

            Could “under the law” be talking about it’s penalty……ie: death?
            Could sanctification be a requirement and therefore James is right in 2:14? And Y’shua is right in Matt 4, Rev 2 & 3? And Paul is right in Acts 20? and Peter is right in Acts 3? And John is right in 1John 2? And YHVH is right?
            Could the very fact that Abraham’s salvation by faith was not all that was required since the covenant of Moses (sanctification) came after that?….AFTER the person is saved by faith? And covenants are eternal (Gal 3).

            How do you explain the FACT that Paul never taught anyone this doctrine of lawlessness, didn’t live it, didn’t write it and didn’t display it? And found to be innocent of those charges? How do you explain that except that you’ve misunderstood? How do you explain that Y’shua taught TORAH to the disciples on the road to Emmaus? And Paul was found to be an accurate teacher by the Bereans searching Torah?

            What does this mean? 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did……26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

            Don’t you think that since ALL these verses are in the bible, that the only logical conclusion for the reconciliation of ALL of them is that a person who works only, (no recognition of Messiah, therefore no faith), they are not saved., ie Judaism. This is who Paul was talking about in Rom 4, the verse you quoted.

            But to the person who BY FAITH has recognized the long awaited for Messiah that Torah says would come, then that person understands that they don’t just toss away what is eternal. Instead, they have the veil removed and comprehend the real meaning of Torah. They are who James is speaking of and who Paul is contrasting in Rom 8 as one who cannot submit to Torah.

            How else do you handle ALL of the scriptures with integrity? How does one who has the mind of the Spirit submit to Torah and the one who has the mind of the flesh refuse to submit to Torah unless these things are true? How can James’ words still be true and Peter’s words still be true when he said that it’s both faith and works? How can you make sense of Y’shua’s instructions both in Matt 5 and the letters to the churches. Was He lying? Putting a yoke or burden on us? Having an unrealistic and grace insulting expectation of us? What about when He said “repent (turn from sin) or perish”? Luke 13 Or when He said that if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off…better to lose a body part than burn in hell? Now, why would the act of sinning cause one to burn in hell when all that person needed to do is believe? No works of obedience required. The Holy Spirit’s sanctification is all that’s needed.

            Because you are leaving no room for all these other verses in your doctrine. You’re not even dealing with them. It’s like you’re saying that Y’shua died so we can continue to sin and it really doesn’t matter what we do or how we act with respect to our salvation as long as we believe. Our lack of obedience is irrelevant in your theology. That is DEFINITELY NOT scriptural.

          • jmvpho says:

            1John 2:4 Whoever says, “I know Him,” but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.5 But if anyone obeys His word, love for God is truly made complete in them.

            (this does not say that we must only believe and the Holy Spirit does everything else)

            1John 3:6 No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.

            (sin is transgression of the law so if you want to identify sin and repent, you study Torah)

            Looks like it’s faith plus works, my friend……no other way to handle all of scripture accurately as a workman who need not be ashamed. We cannot pick and choose verses.

  4. jmvpho says:

    Just thought of this as a possible way to get you all to listen. At the very least, you need to admit there are too many contradictions in scripture with what you’re saying.

    Here are Paul’s words or words about Paul:

    1Cor 11:1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.
    Acts 21:24 “Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.”
    Acts 24: 13 And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me.
    Acts 24: 14 I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way
    Acts 24: 15 I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have

    He made a vow, sacrificed, paid for the sacrifices of others, recognized the authority still in place as long as the Temple and Levitical Priesthood was in place, celebrated the Feasts, kept the Sabbath and taught everyone Torah. At the Jerusalem council, he pointed the new converts first and foremost to the laws that have to do with the Temple IN US (food laws, sexual immorality, idolatry) and then said that they’ll get the rest of Torah as Moses is read. Moses is read on Sabbath.

    The writer of Hebrews reminds us of the importance/discipline of observing the Sabbath.

    Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

    And Peter’s vision and the circumstances around it tell us that Peter never ate anything considered unclean. Because he was confused about an eternal law being replaced and knowing that could never happen, he finally realized the vision was about calling PEOPLE unclean. Peter BELIEVED Isaiah’s prophecy.

    Isa 66:15 See, the Lord is coming with fire,and His chariots are like a whirlwind; He will bring down His anger with fury,and His rebuke with flames of fire.16 For with fire and with his sword the Lord will execute judgment on all people, and many will be those slain by the Lord 17 “Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.

    There is not one shred of evidence you can find that a Disciple blew off the Sabbath, ate bacon, ignored any of the laws pertaining to the Temple or anything else. There is just speculation because of some confusing passages that people twist and distort and refuse to read in context.

    2Pet 3:14…Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures,to their own destruction.

    Here’s the boiled down story. YHVH offered man a way back to the garden. He redeemed a people for Himself (saved them). He gave them His instructions (sanctified them) and He provided the means by which they could one day, enter His presence (the blood of a perfect, sinless, spotless lamb). He revealed Himself and His nature in the instructions of Torah and in the way He dealt with man. He revealed His plan of salvation in the workings of the Temple. He commanded us to fear Him…….and until we do…..we have not even arrived at the starting line.

    His instructions warn us of anyone coming with a different message than His eternal Words. His instructions tell us, not only of Messiah, but when He will come (4th day). He tells us Messiah’s name “God with us”. During that 4th day, Messiah does indeed come. He proved who He was. He only said what His Father said (Torah) and did what His Father gave Him to do. He was sinless and broke NOT one single command. He told us the way to salvation…..Repent, Believe what your FAther says and Keep the commands. (faith and deeds)

    Along comes a guy named Paul, although he’s not the first, who “seemingly” says something different. Lazy, fearLESS, careless, people (me included) believe the distortion of man of what Paul is saying. We embrace it. We love it. It requires nothing but a feel good sense of belonging, totally false but propped up by money, fame, inclusion, emotion and comfort……always comfort. So what do we do?

    We ignore YHVH and His words. We refuse to realize Who He is because He’s not obliterating us like He did Israel. He don’t fear Him as He commanded, in fact we make Him into an imaginary god of our own making. We ignore the Words of His Messiah who actually said the same things as His Father. But we LOVE PAUL. Paul, somehow has the power (in our opinion) to change a holy god. Paul has the cleverness to change the Word. We fall for it. We ignore the passages that say otherwise because we’re getting exactly what we deserve, exactly what we want to hear. We want the veil. We don’t want to hear the voice of YHVH….He’s to Holy for us.

    But there’s a remnant. …….. there’s a restoration…….. and there is a way for all of us to be included, if we have ears to hear.

    • jmvpho,

      I realize I am just jumping into this conversation, and am probably unaware of what other comments you have posted in other posts on Chris’s blog here, or on FB, or wherever else, and I don’t know you, or your stance on a whole host of things, but based on your comments here you sound very adamant about how as believers we are still called to be “keepers of the Law”, (which I agree with…), but the real question is, do you understand that to simply be an outward, mechanical adherence to the superficial understanding of the Law, or an inner obedience to the real SPIRIT and HEART of the Law, an understanding that is defined by Christ Himself and not merely about following an arbitrary set of rules….?

      you mentioned the verse: “Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.”

      But hey, if you stop and read through the entirety of what is being talked about in that whole chapter (or the entire book of Hebrews for that matter), we can clearly see that the author is talking about a “Sabbath” that goes far beyond what the Jewish people in either Moses’ day or Jesus’ day understood it to be all about…

      The author is making this amazing point about how none of the “heroes of the faith” in the Old Testament actually received the inheritance of the Promised Land, in the physical sense, in their temporal, earthly lifetimes, even though God had promised them all that they would receive it. So was God a liar? Did He fail to fulfill His promise? Or was He talking about something bigger and more eternal than the concept of a “Sabbath” that was really just a type and shadow of the eternal reality…

      So did Paul come along and preach a “new” gospel? No way. But was the gospel of Jesus which turned his life around run contrary to the understanding of the Law he had previously held as a Pharisee and student of the Law in order to attain righteousness by himself? Absolutely.

      • jmvpho says:

        Amen to everything you said! Yes, I believe that it is only the residing Spirit of the Living God inside of us that we can understand, obey His instructions, love Him, love others or attempt to do anything He asks of us. Is it about actions only? Of course not. It’s about the incredible miracle of new birth that brings a revelation of what the Torah was always meant to do. Faith is the only means by which the veil is lifted and our true inheritance, while wisdom, blessings, understanding, etc are all manifested in different degrees here, the abundance is in the eternal kingdom we anxious await for.

        The writer of Hebrews is describing this eternal Sabbath but is also reminding us of the instructed and commanded Sabbath for us now and how Israel’s disobedience now (on earth) is a lesson for us all.

  5. pete says:

    jmvpho,

    How exactly do you ‘keep the law’ when there is no temple? The LAW absolutely centered around the tabernacle/temple. If no temple, then no sacrifices. If no sacrifices, no substitutionary atonement for your sins can be made.

    If you state that Christ is your substitionary atonement paid at the Cross, then is that for each sin committed (past tense), but not of those future sins you have not yet committed? Or is Christ’s death on the Cross, payment for your sins, once and for all?

    If its for each sin (ie…you need a new sacrifice for each sin), then clearly, you need to read Hebrews 10. In which case, you could lose your salvation if you sinned, and then did not have that new sacrifice applied before you died.

    If it is once for all, then you can’t lose your salvation, because ALL of your sins have already been paid, thus negating the need for future sacrificial atonement, thus negating the need for the temple, nor the laws built around the temple.

    IOW, if you are a blood bought, born again Christian, you continuing to keep the law, is as useful, as you paying off your mortgage, but then continuing to pay for it after its paid off. That’s about as much sense as you make promoting Judaism back into Christianity, which is what Judaism was designed to lead into…not the other way around.

    • jmvpho says:

      well, not exactly (to your last paragraph). Unless one “repents”, the atonement sacrifice of Christ is not imputed to that person. If the blood covers all sin for all mankind, then why did Y’shua say “repent”. Why did Paul say it, Peter say it and John say it? Unless we come to the mercy seat asking for that blood to atone for us personally, then we will be the one’s sentenced to everlasting judgment.

      If your question is….do I believe I have to ask for forgiveness for every sin I commit or am I condemned? No, of course not. But I am to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance”. My sanctification process keeps me in a relationship with my Father where I ask Him if I am pleasing. I ask Him to reveal my sin. I ask Him to change me and mold me and identify in me where I fall short and I am expected to change those things.

      You ask how we obey the law. We obey the stipulations of the laws that have to do with the temple by not doing them without the temple. Remember He said that Feasts, sacrifices, vows, tithes, etc are only to be done at the temple and we are not to do it “anywhere we want”. So I am obeying Him by not doing these things in the United States because this is not “where He put His name”.

      But there are many laws that we all do automatically without thinking. However, I have been enlighted (and convicted) to some interesting laws that I didn’t really pay attention to before. For instance, I am to assist my enemy in getting his donkey out of the ditch (or whatever needful circumstance he find himself in). In my flesh that is being crucified, I would more than likely ignore my enemy and not want to do anything for him, especially not assist him in need. He’s my enemy after all. It’s not like this is my neighbor or some random person.

      So yes, I am being transformed by Torah. It will take a lifetime. But it’s a beautiful picture of the incredible love and holiness of our God and if people would just build this foundation first, they would understand the new testament a lot better.

      • pete says:

        jmvpho,

        “So yes, I am being transformed by Torah. It will take a lifetime. But it’s a beautiful picture of the incredible love and holiness of our God and if people would just build this foundation first, they would understand the new testament a lot better.”

        How exactly does that work? how does the Torah transform you if the Torah is full of works?

        For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. EPH 2:8-9

        Oh, and without the Temple or a tabernacle, you can’t keep the Torah. You can’t do it here in the US, nor can you do it in Israel. You can’t do it today, nor 1900 years ago. So by not keeping the law, your keeping the law?

        I think you are very confused.

        • Cris Putnam says:

          “transformed by the Torah”? You have put the ministry of death above Christ.

          • jmvpho says:

            Chris,

            Christ is Messiah. What does John say about Him? The Word (TORAH) made flesh. The Torah that was with God, the Torah that was God. You cannot separate Christ from His Word (Torah).

            As Messiah, and as the speaker of Creation, do you honestly believe the “ministry of death” is HIM?

            SURRENDER your mind and He will reveal these things to you. Take into consideration ALL of scripture. Don’t just grab a verse here and there and put it up as some kind of doctrine in totality. How does that honor YHVH?

        • jmvpho says:

          of course it’s by faith. Was Abraham saved any differently? Are you? Am I? But what does the rest of the bible say?????? Could your works or mine be good enough to save? No, but we’re expected to follow His commands and be transformed into His image. What is His image? TORAH in the flesh

          It’s not one or the other. It’s both.

          Do you all even read the bible? Do you just pick out the parts you like and not deal with ALL the verses? Because last time I looked, there are endings to the passages you all are citing and context that you’re ignoring and other scriptures that you’re refusing to deal with. You have absolutely NO FEAR of your Father and you deal carelessly and ignorantly with His Word………such arrogance to a Holy God.

          The covenant with Abraham is a picture of salvation…..FAITH.
          The covenant with Moses (which comes after salvation) is a picture of sanctification….WORKS or DEEDS

          Now go back and read what James wrote. Make sense of why Y’shua would tell the churches (people like you who call yourself a “christian”) to repent and turn from their wickedness, ie: works Why didn’t He just say “believe” or “love” or “ask me into your heart” or “pray this prayer and really really really mean it”?

          Why are we commanded to “be holy as I am holy”?
          Why are we commanded to clothe ourselves in righteousness?

          Do you read anywhere in the bible, the conclusions you are drawing? NO, you’re drawing your conclusions from cherry picking passages, pull them out and not reading the whole thing. You’re making a doctrine that is not taking into consideration the whole picture and everything said on the subject. In fact, I would argue that you who refuse to see and allow the words of scripture (like I’ve written here) are the ones spoken of in Rom 8:7…….sadly.

          And yes, the particular parts of the law that have a stipulation like “do not do this unless certain conditions are met”(my paraphrase), when we obey that command and it’s stipulation and don’t do it, we are OBEYING.

          • Yikes…

            you said you agreed with everything I said in my last comment, yet here you are lambasting Chris Putnam and basically saying he’s not a Christian and preaching a false gospel etc.? Good grief. You employ a strange form of circular reasoning…. Hebrew roots nonsense…. you claim to be embracing the “spirit of the Law”, but in reality what you are pointing everyone back to is merely the letter. You can’t have it both ways, jumping back and forth between salvation by faith, and salvation through works, trying to justify it and explain by claiming that obedience to the letter of the law is what “faith” is. (That’s the same error the first century Jews were making, yeah?)

            You can talk all you want about how much more you revere the holiness of God and all that, but yet you jump on a message board and throw anything but love at your brothers in Christ… That says a lot about how well you understand what God’s word is all about dude…

          • jmvpho says:

            I agreed with your comment because you comment was about there not being a “new” gospel along with your understanding of Sabbath.

            I didn’t say that those who are hostile and unwilling to surrender to Torah are lost, the bible did. Scripture is very clear in Rom 8. If you read these words, does it mean anything to you?

            Why is it that you believe using scripture to identify error and the state or actions of those arguing for lawlessness, is unloving? Do you have any idea what Y’shua would have said to an audience arguing for ignoring sin because it’s ok as long as we have faith?

            Do you have any idea what Paul would have said to such an audience?

            Just understanding what we read about both of them, they would have been much more direct that I have been. And stating what scripture says is THE MOST LOVING THING WE CAN DO.

            Ignoring what scripture says so we can all stroke each other’s ego is to HATE our brother. REad the scriptures…….

          • Yes, I know what the scriptures say….

            “See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

            9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

            13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

            16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.”

            so what does it really mean to “surrender to Torah”, as you put it…?

            Does it mean worshipping on a particular day of the week, or does it mean looking forward the eternal Sabbath rest that all believers will one day enter into?

            Does it mean sacrificing bulls and goats on an altar, or accepting the once and for all sacrifice that Jesus made on our behalf with His own sinless blood?

            Does it mean circumcising your physical body, or experiencing a circumcision of the heart through the work of the Holy Spirit?

            The Bible clearly teaches that it is the latter in every case…

            Christ has come. “Torah” is fulfilled in HIM. That is what the Pharisees failed to accept even when they were staring Jesus right in the face. God incarnate right before their eyes, yet they chose to instead cling to the “shadows” of what was to come, rather than the reality of Christ Himself….

          • jmvpho says:

            Unless you back up and take a more serious and careful examination of scripture, you are not able to understand which doctrine is false. If Paul was handed a “new” gospel, then he would have lived it out, right? And when the Jews were in an uproar about him throwing out Torah, they would have produced his letters as evidence and convicted him, right?

            But that’s NOT WHAT HAPPENED……….read carefully before perpetuating your theology that with a closer look, can be contradicted. Takes only a little bit of intelligence and a lot of humility.

            If Paul kept Torah commandments and was found without any evidence of fault to be teaching lawlessness, then you are misunderstanding at the very least. It would just be nice if someone on these blogs would say “wait a minute, something is very wrong with the doctrine we’ve all learned”.

  6. David Lowe says:

    Cris, I am in 100% agreement with your post.

    David

  7. pete garcia says:

    JMVHPHO,

    According to my friend who is Hebrew Roots, he would say your dead wrong and going to hell because your worshipping a false, pagan god for spelling Yeshua, instead of Yahashua.

    There is your works.

    As for the Law, it has never changed. God has never changed. What changed, is a Christian’s relationship to the Law, because of Jesus Christ’s fulfillment of the Law. And I am in Christ now, so is Christ’s perfect sacrifice not sufficient enough to keep me in Him? Or does it depend on my own efforts to keep the Law?

    • jmvpho says:

      good question. Are we going to answer it from scripture??????

      I’ll let you go to Revelation and see what Y’shua (no vowels that cause argument) says TO THE CHURCHES who are (to use your words) “in Christ”.

      Does He say that they must do something or does He tell them what you just said?

      • pete garcia says:

        Sure, I’m well versed in the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

        1. What are the works of the Church?
        2. What is the commandments of Christ?
        3. Are those works for salvation?
        4. Are those works addressed to congregations, or individuals?
        5. What is the punishment for the works not done, or done for wrong reason?
        6. Where is the Law in these chapters?
        7. Where does Jesus state that they did not keep the Mosaic law, therefore are guilty?

        • jmvpho says:

          What does Christ tell the churches that they must do (the church is always the Body, not the building, and the Body is made up of individuals. iow, the “Body” does not obey, the individuals who make up the Body obey)

          OR if they don’t,

          what happens?

  8. Johnny says:

    Unfortunately Cris D Putnam it does not appear you gave a balanced reply. You didn’t discuss Heb 8:7. Actually, there are several manuscripts that do refer to “them” in Heb8:7 “[in finding fault with] them, [he says], ” alluding to Israel’s failings, NOT the covenant. (Several witnesses (א* A D* I K P Ψ 33 81 326 365 1505 2464 al latt co Cyr) have αὐτούς (autous) here). So Skiba is not the first to understand the text to perhaps refer to the old and new ministry/priesthood.
    In other words, on verse Heb 8:7, there are many NT Greek manuscripts that provide a witness that, what was at fault were the Israelites NOT the covenant NOR the law which were part of the terms. See, the following uncials (Aleph, Alexandrinus, Bezae/Cantabrigiensis, etc.), the Miniscules (33, 81, etc.), and also, Versions(Vulgate, Coptic, Syriac, etc.) So, Skiba and others who see this as referring to the Israelites and the old priesthood do have a very credible “leg to stand on”.

    Also, Skiba never implies following the Mosaic law for salvation. Rather, following the Mosaic law is done out of love for the grace and salvation we already have in Yeshua HaMeshiach /Jesus the Christ. (I am putting my laws in their minds and I will write them on their hearts) This seems to be where there is a disconnect and it shows in the article.

    Those issues aside, I appreciate the Greek study.

  9. Spiritually Minded says:

    My Opinion in all this:

    I really think this argument is a lot simpler than what you all make it out to be. You need a higher way of looking at things, you can not separate the law from any view because it is eternal. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law and not one letter will ever pass away.

    He said he would write the law on our hearts, via the spirit. The law is God’s will and that will never change. Believers you must discern from the OT what are his eternal commands and what was ceremonial. Ceremonial, like washing of hands and cleansing and sacrifices was to teach people about the eternal principals. It is said that those who live by the spirit do instinctively the things of the law. So thou shalt not murder is OT, but is universally accepted as a command we keep in the new covenant even though it was given in the old. So the command never changes from old to new but what is different is the enforcement of the law, now because Jesus fulfilled the requirement of the Law we are under grace so when we brake these eternal principles now, the ones we are trying to keep by the spirit Jesus takes the punishment on the cross. Law never changes but now with the New Covenant we get a much better deal. Back then just think of what they had to do when they broke the laws, all the purification, sacrifices and bs they had to go through to remain part of the promise. Now all you need to do to is repent in your heart and believe in the Son.

    Laws as in eternal commands, and his Promises NEVER change but his methods are always changing.

    Can you really get rid of the 10 commandments? I guess since we are under grace it’s ok to murder? Have idols? I think this whole argument is pointless.

    In my opinion Skiba does have a point, but was immature in name calling because their is a bigger picture here. People call Skiba as part of the Hebrew Roots movement which he is not. He never stated finding salvation in the OT Law or suggests you need to keep every command from the OT. I think what he may be trying to communicate is something that I believe, is that God is trying to point us to our heritage from the OT.

    If we were to keep lots of these Hebrew traditions like Sabbaths and Feasts and have an understanding of what all that was about it’s gunna help us keep focused on God’s principals living in this Godless culture of Babylon that we live in today. I could write pages on this topic, but my point is this is all just misunderstandings.

    In defense of Skiba it could very well be true that they have “gotten” it wrong for the past 400 years. The Devil is working overtime to mess the message up in all modern translations. Im my research all modern translations where taken from corrupt manuscripts, the Alexandrian. The Byzantine was the original one used for Bible translations and it was an occult infiltrator that convinced people to translate from Alexandrian.

    One last word for Chuckles, I have people like you on my blog as well. You are defending your position of Grace but give none to people who hold opposing views to your own. You lash out in bitter defense of a view that nullifies your argument. For not wanting to be under a law you are in bondage to the religious accusing spirit. Jesus said that anyone who say fool to his fellow brother is in the danger of hellfire. (Matt 5:22)

    In seeking the truth in an age of deceit lets have a bit of respect for fellow believers.

  10. just saying says:

    the reference is to the sacrificial system not the “OLD” Covenant. that is all.

    • tactic observant says:

      Agreed – There is a many other a verse that states to do the laws – I know it can be hard but have a read through Leviticus –

      Leviticus 26

      “I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you, and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done?”

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