Exo-Vaticana: Examining Rome’s Great Harlot Status


By Cris D. Putnam
Exo-VaticanaTom Horn and I have suggested the next pope could be the predicted false prophet (Rev 13:11). While some find this offensive, the best sources supporting this notion have been Catholics. For example, I would like to bring to your attention today the priest, John O’Connor. In 1987, O’Connor gave a homily titled “The Reign of the Antichrist,” in which he described how changes within the Roman Catholic Church were already at work before his death to provide for the coming of Antichrist.


Part 2, Part 3, Part 4
 
As this prescient sermon reveals, Catholic sources make the case for us. O’Connor’s worst fears have certainly been realized. An associate of Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI who is considered one of the most important Catholic theologians of the twentieth century, Hans Urs von Balthasar, wrote a provocative essay, “Casta Meretrix,” (“Chaste Harlot”) that not only identified the Roman Catholic Church as the Great Harlot, but embraced it:

The figure of the prostitute [forma meretricis] is so appropriate for the Church…that it…defines the Church of the New Covenant in her most splendid mystery of salvation. The fact that the Synagogue left the Holy Land to go and be among the pagans was an infidelity of Jerusalem, the fact that “she opened her legs in every road in the world.”

But this same movement, which brings her to all the peoples, is the mission of the Church. She must unite and merge herself with every people, and this new apostolic form of union cannot be avoided.[i]

While the embrace of whoredom is astonishing, the convicting words of prophecy, “Come out of her, my people, That ye be not partakers of her sins, And that ye receive not of her plagues” (Revelation 18:4), seem to forecast such apostasy. In sharp relief, Paul’s letter to the Ephesians implies that Christ’s “Bride” is the body of believers who comprise the universal Christian Church (ἐκκλησία “called-out ones”). The one’s called out in order, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Ephesians 5:27). The stage is set for the judgment of the harlot as predicted in Revelation and the prophecy of Saint Malachy. In Exo-Vaticana we suggest a scenario for why the world will be enticed to unite under this Great Harlot spearheaded by Rome.

See: http://www.exovaticana.com/

 



[i] Hans Urs von Balthasar, Casta Meretrix, in Sponsa Verbi, (Brescia: Morceliana, 1969), 267. Translated here: http://www.traditioninaction.org/ProgressivistDoc/A_043_BalthasarMeretrix.htm.
 
This is an online translation of the entire Essay “CASTA MERETRIX” by Hans Urs von Balthasar. http://www.newtorah.org/Casta%20Meretrix.html

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. Mike Heiser says:

    Does the NT itself ever actually name Rome in connection with this term? Does the OT? (there is some overlap). Why would this language be used of Jerusalem in the OT and the NT writer not have that in mind?

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Mike, Here’s how I interpret it. Most scholars agree that John wrote Revelation around AD 90 at the peak of the Roman Empire. Hence, when he alludes that the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits as one aspect of the seven headed beast …that’s a strong hint. But when he closes the chapter with “And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”(Re 17:18) It’s a dead giveaway. There is no competition for Rome if the author’s context and intention is our guide. Also the Dea Roma coin really seems to reflect this vision and might have been the basis for it’s symbolism.

      • Dreia says:

        Just chiming in…(lots on my mind)…

        The interesting thing which bothers me about the statement of “the seven mountains” is that today Rome sits on 9 hills/mountains — thanks to the volcanoes pushing up new hills in the 20th century.

        Brooklyn (NYC) is seated with seven mountains! Brooklyn is also where Washington’s office was located. NYC is where he had the inaugural ceremony (at the Catholic church on Broadway, off Wall Street). Then, we have the waterways for exports and imports.

        If Dolan is elected as pope, …. (speechless) … But I don’t see him as pope (yet).

        I’ve heard for many years that NYC is the new Babylon. And, that Isaiah saw that Babylon will be uninhabitable. (I forgot where in Isaiah that I saw it, but it pertained to future prophecy, not the past).

        Nonetheless, all of this is very interesting, and definitely we’re living on borrowed (and interesting) times.

        Thanks Cris (and Thomas Horn) for the fine reports!! Well done.

        • john B says:

          Isaiah’s prophecy concerned literal Babylon’s fall by the Persians.. The prophecy contains also a futuristic overlay of the End-Times Isaiah chapters 13 and 47
          Much of the ancient Babylonian culture, its pagan religions, and its ideology were continued in the kingdoms (civilisations) which followed (the Statue of Daniels interpretation) An interpretation that is progressive unto the Last civilisation of the “feet and toes of iron and clay” Dan2:42 and as such ensures that there will be no ‘physical restoration’ of the ancient city of Babylon.. something that Saddam tried in vain! Prophecy always moves forward as is the purposes of God in His dealing with humanity…

          Babylonian influence was perpetuated down through the centuries especially in ancient pagan religions.
          Babylon (the symbol of religious confusion) was to appear again in the Great whore of Revelation 17, and its political power was to be revived in the final form of the Roman Empire as depicted in Revelation 18. Dan2:42

          Babylon as a world wide influence for evil politically and religiously will not be terminated until the return of Jesus Christ when he comes in power and glory…

          Something else to consider is that NY city cannot be identified with being “drunk with the Blood of the saints” But Rome can be so identified.

          Blessings

          john B

          • Dreia says:

            Thanks, John B!

            I concur, but this is something which the Holy Spirit revealed to me. Yes, NYC is not under a blood-bath (YET), but it is certainly setting up to become such, especially being that the UN is here on the Eastside setting up new constitution for USA (or the 13 colonies). Many of the states are currently requesting a seccession from central govt. So, I don’t know for sure, but like I said, the spirit revealed a lot to me and from what I’ve read of Cris’ & Tom’s books, I see something grand. And, it is plausible, too.

            In addition, Nostradamus (who was born Jewish and worship Christ), stated in his prophecies (for the final prophecies book), that in the north will be cries and hollerings. (I don’t really subscribe to Nostradamus’ notes, but I do like literature and often recall many of his writings.) We are near to seeing North Korea (and others) exhibiting their “trials and errors” in launching nuclear missleheads.
            They are able to reach the northern hemisphere (most notably, ROME, LONDON, etc.).

            Who knows for sure the Will of Our Lord. But it is a thought.

            Thanks for replying. And, blessings to all!
            Dreia

    • john B says:

      BABYLON ACCORDING TO APOSTLE PETER

      1Pet5:13. “She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you sends you greetings…..”

      Here is the Apostle sending a salutation from “She” the church in Babylon!
      That is to say; within the locality of the Roman empire at the time O Apostle Peter’s letter, there was a local church sending this salutation.

      Fact!!! Babylon the city of Daniel’s exile in Persia was no longer in existence.

      So; which is this Locality referred as Babylon by Apostle ?

      In conjuncture with Revelations17:18 she is the “Great City” ruling over the kings of the earth back in Apostle John’s day.

      She was Rome the centralized power of the Beast… and Rome she is Today.
      Rome she is Today!

      From there ruleth “Pontifex maximus” aka “Caesar” exercising power over the kings of the earth.

      Blessings

      john B

      • hopeful_watcher says:

        And what country in Europe still has Royalty preserved, so that Rome may exercise authority over kings?

        England… Consider a possibility and see how it fits nicely with prophetic scripture. Prince Charles abdicating his future crown to Prince William. The Anglican church uniting with Catholicism in ecumenical glory, this path to unification has already been paved by Pope Benedict. This would be a grand union of church and state, which translates into a one world government/religion.

        Just something to keep our eyes on and consider as the queen of England goes into the hospital.

        • sandy says:

          Hopeful, Last night I read an article about the ‘Queen’ being hospitalized. It said that she was cancelling her appointments this week; one of them being a trip to Rome.
          I thought to myself…”A trip to Rome – this week, which is just prior to the beginning of the conclave”? Coincidence? Maybe, or if you consider the prophecy that stones of fire will rain down and kill all except the ones who haven’t showed up yet, it makes her cancellation, shall I say ‘interesting’. Perhaps she knows something. Just an interesting thought!

          Blessings,
          Sandy

        • john B says:

          Hi hopeful;The majority cannot see itThe Ecumenical movement has achieved her goal in compromising the Protestants and they are no longer protesting having been swayed by the post reformation agenda presently instituted in most seminaries….most are bosom friends of the Papacy and those who still see the papacy for what it is, are looking for a political antichrist to sit in a rebuilt jewish temple! ‘a contradiction in terms’
          The Charismatic movement has also played a greater role in this compromise.
          The movement has the greatest influence in the African church scene today but is almost destitute of sound biblical doctrine. However; not all is lost, there are a few “remnants” that stand for Apostolic historical Christianity.

          The Scriptures calls on God’s people to be separate from all the works of darkness and to content for the “faith once delivered to the saints” Jude3

          God is faithful and He will honor His promises to stand with these who remain faithful to Him.
          ”Be thou faithful unto death and I will give thee a crown of life” Rev2:1

          Blessings

          john b

  2. Joshua says:

    Hi, Cris and all.

    (1) Is it true that the “prophecy” of the last pope is unnumbered? If so, do you think there is any significance to the fact that the last “pope” on Malachy’s list is unnumbered (maybe he’s not actually a pope) and that Peter the Roman is said merely to occupy the seat (nothing that necessarily implies legitimate election to it)?

    (2) Could it be that Petrus Romanus is Tarcisio Bertone and he’s already in his place (since he occupies the seat and is not actually numbered among official popes [as of the date of the writing of this message – 20130306]) ?

    Thanks!

    Joshua

    • john B says:

      Interesting! and if for some reason the conclave enters a stalemate Uh!

      Blessings
      john B

      • hopeful_watcher says:

        Benedict returned the conclave ruling back to its previous state of requiring 2/3 of the votes. Possibilities of stalemate or someone getting close to 2/3 and arguing that this would and should be sufficient based on the previous ruling. No one knows once the door closes, but I have a feeling the conclave is more political posturing then a divine ruling from the heavens. There will also be a split between those who are protectionists of the church (and to bury scandal) and those who want a conservative to come and reform the church. Lots of reason for self interest to creep in, rather choosing someone who would glorify God.

        Joshua, you bring up an interesting point. If there is no clear winner, historical precedence has shown, that sometimes there is a split with a pope and an antipope as a result. Yes its unlikely, but that’s another possibility I can see with the current dynamic.

  3. BT says:

    Maybe this is something that ought to be examined…

    Rabbi David Kimchi writes as follows in Obadiam:

    “What the Prophets foretold about the destruction of Edom in the last days was intended for Rome, as Isaiah explains (ch. 34,1): Come near, ye nations, to hear . . . For when Rome is destroyed, Israel shall be redeemed.”

    Rabbi Abraham also, in his book Tseror Hammor, section Schoftim, says the same:

    “Immediately after Rome is destroyed we shall be redeemed.”

    http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter15.htm

    (And no, I don’t think this is meant to refer to “spiritual” Israel.)

  4. BT says:

    I guess three links causes comment to go into Moderation?
    Will post differently next time if this is the case.

    Will post this for now and the links may show up later in complete post?

    1)“In recent history, several Catholic priests–some deceased now–have been surprisingly outspoken on what they have seen as this inevitable danger rising from within the ranks of Catholicism as a result of secret satanic “Illuminati-Masonic” influences….” (this is from a description of Chris’s book,Petrus Romanus.)

    2)“Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end.”—-Rabbi Isaac Wise

    The Jewish Tribune newspaper, in 1927, in an editorial, stated: “Freemasonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic ritual and what is left?”

    3)“When the time comes finally to destroy the PAPAL court the finger of an invisible hand will point the nations towards this court. When, however, the nations fling themselves upon it, we shall come forward in the guise of its defenders as if to save excessive bloodshed. By this diversion we shall penetrate to its very bowels and be sure we shall never come out again until we have gnawed through the entire strength of this place.” (#17)

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      That is the first I have heard that. If that is true, that the roots of freemasonry are Judaism, then that gives new insight to the phrase, synagogue of Satan.

      • BT says:

        How so, Hopeful?

        • hopeful_watcher says:

          Some use the phrase of Synagogue of Satan in a antisemitic manner to say it points to zionism, even in its more virtuous form and Israel as a whole.

          I can definitely see that phrase applying to an organization like the Freemasons and that much more so if they lay some claim to judaism.

          • BT says:

            There is the whole Khazarian angle to think about, too. Are they the “Jews who are not”? They supposedly took on the religion of Judaism and are quite the conquerers!

            Anyway, here’s an important quote. (Again, not my words, but theirs, which makes the connection to the Synagogue of Satan”.)…

            “In “The Pharisees–The Sociological Background of Their Faith,” Rabbi Louis Finkelstein describes these self-styled “Jews” and their origins: “Phariseeism became Babylonian Talmudism, Babylonian Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism. But throughout these changes in name…the spirit of the ancient Pharisee survives unaltered.”

            “…rabbinic Judaism, the first-born child of Phariseeism, remains a unit until this day.” (p.XXI of Forward to 1st Edition, “The Pharisees,” Vol. 1, Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1938 & Vol. 2, p. 622.
            Jesus had quite a verbal scathing for the Pharisees in Matthew 23. He exposed them for the sort of people they were: “Hypocrites,” “sons of hell,” “blind guides,” “fools,” “full of robbery and self-indulgence,””whitewashed tombs…full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness,” “full of hypocrisy and lawlessness,” “partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets,” and “serpents and brood of vipers.”….

            http://loveforlife.com.au/content/08/01/18/understanding-synagogue-satan-zionism-talmudism-babylonian-cabbalism

          • john B says:

            This might give some insight into what the synagog of satan Was as referred in Rev chap2 http://www.iahushua.com/JQ/Torah.html If you believe the link and others as such the origin of Talmud judaism is Babylonian

            The fact is that it was present Back then in Apostles Day.. The doctrines of such a synagog I am sure are still part of that Mystery Babylonian Whore of the end-Times..

            john b

          • BT says:

            Well, they don’t call it the Babylonian Talmud for nuthin’!
            😉

          • BT says:

            Ya know, Hopeful, if Jesus was here today and made those same accusations, he’d be labelled an “anti-semite” too, wouldn’t He?

            Sure looks that way to me.

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            I don’t doubt that zionism and the plight of the Jewish people have been in some ways perverted by the interests of Satan. In the same way I view some Catholic brethren as virtuous and Christ loving despite the corruption and evil manifesting in its upper ranks, likewise I view the God fearing Jewish people in a more acceptable light then the power hungry that ride the white horse striding bent on conquest. I also believe he will call out a remenant who will finally come to Christ and the others will fall to the Antichrist.

          • BT says:

            Talmudism is totally of the devil! Why else would their “Holy Talmud” proclaim Jesus is in hell boiling in excrement and also promote pedophilia and killing off the gentiles?

            Zionism I see as more of the political arm of those seeking to establish their kingdom here on earth.

            Thank God for the remnant called out from all walks of life.

            The Jews may have a hard time giving up the priviledge that comes from being a part of the ruling class, but those who love Jesus Christ will not partake of that deception.

            There are few who really seek this kind of ultimate control of people. The rest of us would prefer to live peaceful lives. I don’t paint all people with the same wide brush, but there is a decidedly “Jewish” push for the NWO, and their Talmud is what guides them. Many of the rest who follow along are useful idiots, knowingly or otherwise.

            I’m not arguing with what you said, by the way. I just wanted to say my post was not merely about “Zionism”. Talmudism is the scary stuff.

            Have you ever heard of the Noahide Laws and Beheading of Christians? (Look it up.) If anyone professes Christ, they are idolators and death is by beheading! (Revelation 20:4.)

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      Also consider that there is another organization that feels like its very compatible with the freemasons and that is the Knights of Columbus. You are required to be a Catholic to be a in this group.

      For extra gross out factor, freemasons have a sub-group called Job’s Daughters and the Knights of Columbus have a sub-group called Catholic Daughters of the Americas. These sub-groups, in my opinion, are about raising up potential prospects to feed their goddess worship.

  5. BT says:

    There are many who say Jerusalem is the Great Harlot.

    i can’t vouch for all of this, but it is rather interesting.

    http://www.bibleprophesy.org/rev1718.htm

    • Cris Putnam says:

      There are many who say Jerusalem is the Great Harlot.

      It does not fit the author’s context. Jerusalem has never had dominion over the kings of the earth (Rev 17:18), usually this is a strategy to prop up preterism which tries to force the book of Revelation into the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. It seems like pounding a square peg into a round hole.

      • BT says:

        I don’t know…the “Proofs” at that link are pretty convincing, scripturally.

        • sandy says:

          Cris,
          Would America, more specifically, Washington DC not “qualify” as a candidate? The layout of DC and Vatican are very similar. DC is also a city if seven hills, and I also read today that at one time, prior to being Washington DC, it was called Rome. We also, as a superpower have had “dominion over the kings of the earth?

          One more question. In your opinion, Is Mystery Babylon (Rev.17) and Babylon (Rev.18) the same place or is one the “religious” aspect and one the “governmental” aspect?

          Thanks,
          Sandy

  6. BT says:

    I’d better add that I don’t bring these things up just to be “disagreeable”!
    I so wish there were not so many contradicting viewpoints to examine, and that everything was cut and dried.

    Like I said, I actually have more questions now than when I first began looking into these things. Answers hard, if not impossible to come by, and questions that I would rather not entertain.

    Anyway, I pray God has mercy on those of us with sincere longings for truth and wisdom and justice.
    I know the adversary will do all he can to keep us from it.

    That’s all I wanted to say.
    Thanks for bearing with me.

    • sandy says:

      BT,
      It seems like I can feel your heart and I sense a genuine thirst for truth coming from you. I really appreciate that. I know what you mean about having more questions than ever. I feel the same way. Some of the answers are hard and it is scary sometimes. It would be much easier to keep on believing that we are gonna be out of here and cruise on in to Glory Land, but I have to be honest with myself…and you do to. We have to prepare ourselves, in more ways than one, for what’s coming. We are gonna HAVE to come to the place where our FULL trust is in God. For that to happen, we are gonna have to go through some things. We are gonna have to learn to depend on God to be our provider for EVERY need we have. We have to be purified.
      Pre-trib believers think that at “any moment” the rapture could happen. Do they ACTUALLY think Jesus would want to marry His Bride in her current condition? Do they think if the rapture happened right now that the Bride would be pure and white? One needs not look around very long to see that the Bride isn’t ready. We’ll only be purified by going through fiery trials. But just like the Hebrew Children in the fiery furnace, they had somebody with them! That gives me hope. Whether this fleshly body lives or dies, I know where my destination is, and when it all boils down……that’s all that REALLY matters.
      In the meantime, He must increase and I must decrease. We’re GONNA make it, BT. Then – it will all be worth it.

      God Bless You. Keep fighting the good fight!………..Sandy

      • Carla says:

        What a fantastic answer Sandy! I agree with you completely! AMEN!

      • BT says:

        Sandy, I have been saying pretty much the same thing for awhile now. The only foundation we have left is to be our faith and if we are seeking His blessings, we ought to be seeking and doing what He would have us to do. I believe that means coming out of this world and not giving Satan a foothold, not even a toe-hold, in our lives.
        We need His indwelling Spirit and cannot allow ourselves to be lukewarm. No more flirting around with the ways of this world. It’s all crumbling anyway.

        Another way I looked at the bride of Christ is to ask, how could he have TWO brides? Is it The Jews, or is it those whose faith is in Him? He is not a bigamist!

        You keep up the good fight as well, & God bless~

  7. SL says:

    Cris,
    You may have already covered the movie Skyline in your book, but
    what I found very interesting was the Catholic review of this movie.

    http://old.usccb.org/movies/s/skyline.shtml

    This statement sure seems odd:
    “But it’s one of those rare New Testament moments in a horror film.”

    It will be interesting to see if more movies have “alien rapture” scenes
    like this one in the future.

  8. JS says:

    Hi, I left the RCC church after 48 years, I really want to understand all of this however, so much of it goes right over my head! Would someone be kind enough to summarize all of this for me in terms that a new Christian can understand?

    Sincerely, Jacci

    • Cris Putnam says:

      JS, I suggest you watch my lecture video here.

      • James says:

        Cris, I just want you to know that I am appreciating you more by the day. I have visited your web-site from time to time, and I have heard most of your interviews over the last year or so. The interview with you, Tom Horn and Steve Quayle is wonderful. I have it playing in the background over and over the last week or so when I am at my desk. I could shoot myself, I didn’t buy Petrus Romanus, and with time moving on I am Looking Up more by the day. Regardless I will buy the new one, and might go ahead and get Petrus Romanus also. God Bless Brother and Thank you for fighting the good fight of Faith. I have been in a few tussles with some on your site in the last few days. I then started going back and looking at some of the older articles and posts. They don’t read your replies or don’t care, so why should I get upset if they don’t read mine or if they do they just don’t get it..James

        • hopeful_watcher says:

          Why must we have an answer to the rapture debate? Why is this so important? It’s not like it will or won’t happen dependent on if we have it figured out.

          I think the better approach is to do EXACTLY as Jesus instructs us to do. We must count the cost of being a disciple. How can we count the cost if we are busy packing our bags? I am resolved to be pleasently surprised if I am wisked away in a rapture. And if I am not, I have counted the cost and I am ready for that too.

          So to your point James, I am saying I read the posts, I am familiar with the debate. Let’s let it go, humble ourselves enough to say we won’t know until it happens and get down to the business of discipleship.

        • john B says:

          James; Cris knows that i am not a dispensationalist, that does not mean that I do not agree with him on many topics that he posts….
          You have not bothered to answer these questions of mine from Cri’s previous post…
          I think that you cannot answer these 4 questions without the compromise of your theological views..
          I am not wishing to argue, I only want the truth to settle a division within the body of christ .

          I post them again for you below

          Hi James; What do you make of Apostles words in 2Thes1:6,7,8,9,10 That is ink on paper… Please read it very carefully and keep it in context!

          Does that to you indicate a secretive rapture or a fiery Judgment?

          What about 2Tim4:1 is the Apostle there, Referring pre-trib or post-trib Judgment?

          What about Apostle Paul’s words in Rom9:6 If “Not all Israel is Israel” then who is the “all Israel will be saved” of Rom11:26 ?

          Apostle Peter Refers to Jews scattered…., That prior to receiving mercy They were “not a people” 1Pet2:10 Who then are the people of God according to Apostle?

          Came a point in my life where I had to repent of various theologies… and I mean repent!

          I do read the comments by Cris and all others, and it is just that sometimes I don’t want to mull over the same issues , I comment if it is relevant. I thoroughly understand The pre, mid, post trib doctrine of Darby and Scofield, and I do not agree with it.
          you may answer my Questions if you so wish..

          john B

          • James says:

            John B..As I said in my comments to Cris that apparently got this response. I went back to older articles yesterday, and read many of them along with comments. What I read between you and Cris and your exchanges, it would be useless to continue. He has said many of the things I have posted over the last few days, and he is far more knowledgeable than I. Again if you are to have any idea about eschatology you must comprehend 1 Corinthians 10:32 After the Catching Away, there will be only two groups left an Unbelieving Gentile world that has their sights set on destroying the Jewish people and taking the city of Jerusalem. There is an old saying “the day God chose the Jew, the devil chose them too” There is a reason throughout history that many leaders have done everything in their power to destroy them, and that is not by accident. I will assume that you were born a Gentile? The Apostle Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles during this dispensation. Paul was sent to the Gentiles to preach the Gospel 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 The preaching of the Good News is the power that transforms Jews and Gentiles into the Body of Christ. Then when the Fulness of the Gentiles be come in, the Lord will deal with Jew and an Unbelieving world (Gentiles) in his Wrath. Another old saying is “everything in the Bible is for us, but not everything in the Bible is to us”…. John B, My last advice spend more time with Paul for He is the Master Builder. Keep Looking Up, James

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            You are upset that people disregard your comment, but then you disregard mine.

            James, why must we know? Which is more important: that we are to achieve salvation and help guide others to do the same (including counting the cost, which may or may not include suffering) or to know when such an event might take place?

  9. john B says:

    I posted this on a Dispensational Messianic Blog yesterday… It never got through…. Why?
    Because it meant, that some doctrinal views would need to be amended… but it seems that proving some wrong would be detrimental to Personal status may be….the post is below

    John B said

    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    March 5, 2013 at 12:36 am
    Most refer to theTemple mount being the current location of the Dome of the rock and the wailing wall.. Not so! please read the historical facts http://askelm.com/temple/t980504.htm

    john B

    • john B says:

      I only posted it because of all the hype going on the Blog about mr Obama going to the temple mount in Israel… LOL

      • BT says:

        From your link:

        …”Josephus and Titus Agree With Jesus

        Was Jesus correct in his prophecies? Was Jerusalem with its Temple and walls leveled to the ground? What is remarkable is the fact that the eyewitness accounts given by Josephus and Titus agree precisely with what Jesus prophesied.”….

        I love when the obvious is pointed out this way! I’d never considered it before.
        Thanks!

    • BT says:

      Good luck with that!

      • BT says:

        Good luck with your post going through, John B, is what I should have said! (My comment looked kinda lost where it wound up~Oops!)

  10. BT says:

    Wanted to toss in this little conspiratorial tidbit, alluding to the infiltration of the Catholic church.

    “The following information is going to be a ‘shock’ to all Roman Catholics. In 1491 San Ignacio De Loyola was born in the Basque province of Guipuzcoa, Spain. His parents were Marranos and at the time of his birth the family was very wealthy. As a young man he became a member of the Jewish Illuminati Order in Spain. As a cover for his crypto Jewish activities, he became very active as a Roman Catholic. On May 20, 1521 Ignatius (as he was now called) was wounded in a battle, and became a semi-cripple. Unable to succeed in the military and political arena, he started a quest for holiness and eventually ended up in Paris where he studied for the priesthood. In 1539 he had moved to Rome where he founded the ‘Jesuit Order,’ which was to become the most vile, bloody and persecuting order in the Roman Catholic Church. In 1540, the current Pope Paul III approved the order. At Loyola’s death in 1556 there were more than 1000 members in the Jesuit order, located in a number of nations.” (How the World Government Rules the Nations)

    “Setting up the Jesuit order, Ignatius Loyola devised an elaborate spy system, so that no one in the order was safe. If there was any opposition, death would come swiftly. The Jesuit order not only became a destructive arm of the Roman Catholic Church; it also developed into a secret intelligence service.” (How the World Government Rules the Nations)…

    http://johnthewitness.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/mystery-babylon-the-great-israel-or-the-vatican/

  11. James says:

    hopeful watcher, I noticed your comment to me. God bless you, and if I might make two basic comments. One is you might read the last comment I made to John B this morning, and the other is why do people who by all indications have completely different views find it necessary to camp out on a web-site where they know the person is a Dispensationist, and if you go back and read the exchanges even Cris gets very frustrated. Over and over, what are they trying to accomplish?. It certainly isn’t building up the Body of Christ. Is it to win an argument? Someone told me the other day in a response similar to what I am writing now. They come here to share their opinions. I do appreciate other people’s opinion. This may sound arrogant, but I could in the truest sense careless about people’s opinion when time and time again they are presented with God’s Word, and the final authority is the Lord and his Word…Keep Looking Up, James

  12. James says:

    hopeful watcher, I didn’t see your last response, and I apologize to you. I saw another comment and I addressed it just in the last few minutes, and then I saw another comment. I believe something’s are worth fighting for in the Faith. And two of the biggies are far as I am concerned are: 1. The God of the Bible made an Eternal Promise to the Fathers about the Land. I have read estimates where people who claim the name of Christ (particularly the Church in America) somewhere in the 70-80% range believe that the Jewish people (Israel) are occupiers on the Land, and that is not even considering the Unbelieving World. There is no such thing as a Palestinian People. Arafat himself was an Egyptian. The UN is in the process of forcing the Jews to divide the Land, and try to take Jerusalem away from the Jewish people. God’s Wrath is poured out on every country or person who comes again Jerusalem. The Lord in his Word has told the Jews “Never to divide that Land”, and I tremble for my country, we are in God’s cross hairs for this and many other reasons, but make no mistake about it we are one of the Ring Leader’s in wanting to force them to divide that Land. Judgment is Coming!!! The Tribulation period is the Biblical commentary on this time. Throughout his Word the Lord made it clear he would disperse them and then bring them back in the Last Days. Ignorance is not bliss, if the Lord can renege on this eternal promise then the promise at the Cross might mean nothing. 2. The Blessed Hope is scoffed at by the World, and when you have people say “thus saith the Lord” and it doesn’t happen there is more ridicule brought on this Promise to the Body of Christ. That’s why I am harping about this Wonderful Event which is Coming. I also understand that those who claim the name of Christ particularly in American Churches also fall into the 70-80% range for denying it’s validity. That’s why I said to John B earlier today, you can’t understand End Time eschatology unless you comprehend 1 Corinthians 10:32 In this dispensation there are 3 groups of People. The Bible teaches one day at any moment the Body of Christ will be Caught Away, then all Hell will break loose. Don’t you find it amazing that Two Great Promises of the Bible are being or trying to be destroyed. I don’t believe that it is by accident. Hopeful Watcher, I am sorry for this short version… God bless and Keep Looking Up, James

    • Cris Putnam says:

      James is correct that God will turn His attention back to the Jewish people as scripture makes very clear.

      “Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
      “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
      “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
      As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.(Ro 11:25–28)

      “Until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” implies a point in time when the church age is done and God will redeem the Isarelites. You all should be praying for the Jewish people to recognize their messiah.

      “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”(Zec 12:10)

  13. sandy says:

    MY GOODNESS, James! YOU are the one who keeps this thing going, then you tell Cris that you have been “tusseling ” with some? YOU ARE THE ONE WHO WON’T LET IT GO! Why do you INSIST on keeping it going? Why do we come to this site? Well, James, I for one have MANY, MANY more subjects that I am interested in BESIDES “dispensationalism”. YOU initiated an argument 2 DAYS AGO with BT. She told you THEN she didn’t want to get drawn in to your games! Go back and look, I DID; it is you!

    Hopeful also has tried to get you “drop it” BUT YOU WON’T. On top of that, you blame everybody else!

    Let’s face it; YOU aren’t gonna change anyone’s mind, and nobody is gonna change your mind, so why can’t we MOVE ALONG? Is your need to be right that important to you? The Bible has a “term” for that…..it’s called “the pride of life”. Why can’t we comment on the subject of Cris’ post? You pick, and pick til someone responds and run to Cris……like you’re a victim. PLEASE QUIT BEATING THIS DEAD HORSE! Sandy

  14. BT says:

    Chris,
    All differences aside, I would like to read more about what you wrote concerning the infiltration of the Catholic church by “Illuminati-Masonic” influences. Is there a particular blog you put together on that subject? I’d really like to read it if you did.

    • sandy says:

      BT,
      Have you by any chance ever read an interview done , I think in the late ’70’s with a man named Harold Wallace Rosenthol?

      Blessings,
      Sandy

      • BT says:

        Yes, I have.

        • sandy says:

          BT,
          For the sake of not stirring up more wrath, let me just ask; Do you agree? As for me, I’m not dismissing it, he seems to know what he’s talking about.

          • BT says:

            Yes, Sandy, I think it reveals much of what the majority of people choose to ignore or dismiss.
            Frankly I think the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion is also more truthful than any would dare admit. I have read them too and see them being fulfilled beyond a doubt.

          • Cris Putnam says:

            The protocols are made up propaganda used by the Nazis and other anti-Semites. There is good evidence the Jesuits manufactured the document because they are very similar to a known Jesuit created document meant to demonize the Jansenists. See this.

          • sandy says:

            Is it any wonder that the Lord Himself told us to be “wise as serpents”? And who, in the scriptures, did He call ” den of snakes”? The Pharisees!

          • BT says:

            I guess I imagined posting this already!

            The Noahide Deception.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3W1tbvqGYk

            What do you think about the Noahide Laws, Chris?

  15. James says:

    Sandy, I think if you read the last post or two I have sent to John B and the last two I just sent to hopeful watcher, it pretty much sums it up. I don’t know if Cris is so busy or he really hasn’t been paying attention or what? I believe he and I are very close to the same page? If I am wrong and he corrects me, then I will apologize. My understanding is on the comments section when things are typed boldly, that is considered screaming. Let me clarify something, there is a thing called “RIGHTEOUS ANGER”. I see where many of the people don’t address Cris’ articles, but address many other issues. My suggestion to you and me is spend more time on God’s Word like a cow “chews it’s cud” God Bless You and Keep Looking Up, James

    • sandy says:

      James, I’m glad you think that what YOU’RE comments say….”sums it all up”. Unfortunately, you’re probably the only one who thinks that! I think Cris DOES pay attention. The difference is, he has enough wisdom to know that this thing could go on for 2 weeks, on top of the last 2 days and we would STILL be where we were then, but you don’t.

      Yes, I am familiar with “righteous anger”. It’s what I feel when I think of abortion or the Rick Warrens’ & Joel O’steens’. But what I am seeing out of you is something else….the need to be right.

      You are right about one thing. I could never spend ENOUGH time in God’s Word….NOBODY could. Unfortunately there’s only so many hours in a day. Since YOU see the need for ME to improve and I except that; let me make a suggestion to YOU. Take the beam out of your own eye before you try to get the speck out of mine, and leave the bovines out of it! Sandy

      • James says:

        Sandy, I can let this be my last post, and go back to being a fly on the internet wall. And I will unless I see something in passing that is out to lunch or just plain stupid etc.. What bothers me for an example is someone posted yesterday, asking Cris for help, there are several people posting stuff on this site, which might make that person consider going back to Catholicism, and I hope not. If not, they sure would be confused, not knowing if they are coming or going. Again if Cris says anything to me, I will be glad to address it. If you are correct which I hope you are then he is reading these posts, and apparently so far he hasn’t said a word. As I stated in an earlier post to you. I was pointing the finger at myself just as much at you about Bible study. All I did was post a paragraph written by Gary Stearman, about the Last Generation. And I believe he and Cris are friends? My comment was addressed to no one if memory serves me correctly. Immediately I was attacked, then I took some time to read a few of the exchanges, and it became apparent several people here have taken up residence. God Bless, John B, but I couldn’t help myself when he attacked Gary Stearman and “AL LINSY”. I didn’t comment to you, and I didn’t correct you when I believe you also spelt his name wrong. Of course I knew he was speaking of Hal Lindsey. I thanked you for informing me who he was talking about. And yes by the time the exchanges started I mentioned as a joke that I thought he was referring to a distant cousin of Gary DeMar for John B’s benefit. I would think you are aware of him? Like I said, I started reading some of the posts and BT was one. I was polite, but I will admit with a smirk, after her whatever description about the Rapture and LOL, again I couldn’t help myself. There is a reason I asked, How many Gentiles did Jesus have any dealings? And why that to the Body of Christ makes all the difference. I figured since someone had the mystery revealed to Paul by the Risen Savior about the Catching Away of the Body solved. They might expound on why the Risen Savior took Paul aside and revealed several more mysteries, and why he was called to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Haven’t you ever ask yourself, why Jesus only dealt from a scripture point of view with two gentiles, and if you count the woman at the well she was half Jewish? So Sandy honestly other than thanking you, I never addressed you again, but you took upon yourself to address me today. If you don’t want to read my posts just delete them, but I am sure this about SUMS IT UP and Keep Looking Up, James

        • john B says:

          James why Are you saying that I attacked Linsay & Stearman… I was simply pointing the fact that, It is best to admit being wrong about a matter (generation) rather than alter ones views to cover ones error, Nothing more!

          God only knows my heart, There be no malice on my behalf.. It is you now that is projecting an image of me as an attacker.. Believe me, There is nothing I rather see than brethren living in unity, and God know that.. So, be careful please that you don’t misrepresent another based on what you perceive as truth..
          Hal Linsay was wrong in the eighties, instead of repenting He altered his position rather than correct his theology.. There is no attack in that Just fact!

          john B

        • sandy says:

          James,
          This will be my last comment on this dead horse. I sat idly by for stretches of time the last two days, occasionally I have posted a comment. I read everyone’s comments and if there’s something that strikes a tone, I will comment. But you have been DOMINATING the blog, beating this dead horse and I have NOT engaged until this morning. Brand new day. I check in to see what’s new. NOTHING………you are STILL beating that poor old horse to hopeful, who, by the way, asked you yesterday to drop it. BT told you day-before yesterday that she didn’t want to play.

          They say third time is a charm. Not so with you. I thought, “Maybe if I let him know how childish and spiritually immature he looks, maybe he will stop”. W R O N G !! THEN- when you reply, you point out what you think MY short-comings are and in a very sneaky way; insult me (the ‘cow’ remark. I already know you’re gonna deny that you meant it as insult, so SPARE ME) ….. all because I DON’T SHARE SOME OF YOUR VIEWS. I have been where you are now, all my life, I was that way. Only the last 2 years have my views changed.

          I decided to let the Holy Spirit lead me to truth. I asked Him to show me IN THE WORD…..the answers to my questions. He has so graciously done that. You or no-one else is gonna pull me back into the “opinion of man”. I do not totally disagree with you. I believe the Jews, who haven’t been killed, WILL “look upon Him, who the pierced”; and mourn with repentance….at the end. But the rest of your theology, I respectfully reject. I will NOT argue with you about it nor will I call you names because you don’t share my beliefs.

          I, for one would just like to hear my brother and sisters’ thoughts about Cris’ blogs. I am the 3rd one to ask you to stop. Are you that selfish? I guess we’ll see.

          • James says:

            We will all agree that we will live on opposite sides of Heaven from each other. If Woodrow Kroll is correct in the New Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven..it has been estimated that each person could have about a 100 square mile Condo. I might ask the Lord for some COWS…Keep Looking Up, James P.S. Sheep are stupid and Cows chew the cud (meditate) like we are suppose to do with God’s Word.

          • sandy says:

            James , you might want to check out March 6 episode of “Trunews” with Rick Wiles.

  16. BT says:

    Chris,
    As much as I like to read about the Pope, you wrote about the infiltration of Catholicism, and that is what I am really interested in learning more about.
    Maybe my question got lost in the shuffle, so to speak, but did you put together a blog more on that angle?
    If so, I’d really like to read it.
    Thanks!

  17. James says:

    John B…Let me say it this way. Doctors are said “to practice medicine”. They are never in truth fully knowledgeable. They are practicing and evolving day to day. It is the same with a Bible Scholar. Might I add it is good that we aren’t still under the law because there would be many stoned to death for being False Prophets. There is night and day difference between a “Thus saith the Lord” and someone that is studied and making educated guesses or speculation about things. For an example my wife and I had a DVD produced with “Prophecy in the News” that took a combination of their material about Damascus, Russia and Iran in 2006. It is more front page news today than in 2006. Damascus is the “oldest continually inhabited city in the world” , but God’s Word says it will cease from being a city. A heap of rubble. Somewhere between 4-5,000 years old. Don’t buy Real Estate in Damascus. Isaiah 17:1 I stated to you that most people aren’t aware that in Ezekiel 38:5 the nation of Persia is listed as a latter day nation that attacks Israel. Syria is the last foot-hold for Russia in the Middle East. They have a warm water port for their fleet, and Persia which changed their name to Iran in 1935 is supplying many enemies of Israel with weapons. Assad has threatened to fire WMD at Israel. Israel will make the place a sea of glass. It is all over the news, even today. I read Hal Lindsey early in my Christian walk, and if I am wrong then so be it, but I am not aware of Lindsey making a proclamation of “Thus saith the Lord”. John B..if someone goes back and read’s your comments you were asking for Lindsey and Stearman to repent in humility for being so incorrect. A friend has called and I must leave…John B…sometimes Facts on the Ground are Facts on the Ground, and to say you were being especially cordial to these gentleman would be a stretch…In a hurry..hope this makes sense..Keep Looking Up, James

    • john B says:

      Here Just for you James , so you know that what I am saying about Hal Lindsey is the truth, and That I am not slurring or attacking Him or anybody that support His doctrine… Time to wake up! (Three times) he amended his book ‘great late planet earth’. because He got it wrong… As far as i am concerned, He still got it wrong! still flogging the same dead horse! and yes He should apologise and face the consequences.. He is not beyond accountability, none of us are… http://www.jonathanguenther.com/blog/2011/05/the-late-great-planet-earth/ there are plenty more sites that say the same..

      john B

      • James says:

        John B.. I had a response, and I am tired and It accidentally got erased. I will reply in the morning Lord willing. Keep Looking Up, James P.S. I might go for the long version tomorrow? Everyone seems to be getting tired of my short versions

      • James says:

        John B…Let us deal with you and Hal “Al Linsy” Lindsey, and Gary Stearman, and other Dispensationalist. John, I posted a comment on the board about the Last Generation, which Gary Stearman had written for the current “Prophecy in the News” magazine. I had looked over the board, and I saw where it appeared that a discussion was taking place about this topic. A friend and I had been having this discussion over the past week. I don’t claim to be the most computer literate person, but to the best of my knowledge? I didn’t address my comment to anyone. It was a general statement about the topic. If anyone really cares about going back and reading the discussion, which I did for this post, then they can see the exchange. You brought Al Linsy into this conversation, and lumped Gary Stearman and all people of this ilk into the same slanderous computer breath. As I said in an earlier comment. I read Hal Lindsey many years ago. By many peoples estimate that book was read on college campuses around the country and around the world. I also said that “if Hal set a date, and it didn’t happen” then by definition, he is a false prophet? I like many will assume that millions of people came to Christ through that book. Countless Pastors and Evangelist etc. The scriptures tell us that a 1,000 years with the Lord is like a day. So if Lindsey said “Russia, Iran and the attack on Israel would take place in the 80’s”. Then a few decades in the eons of time are miniscule, but a few moments. I will assume for a moment that Hal Lindsey and John B will stand before the Bema Seat Judgment of Christ one day. I don’t know you are him. Fire will be put to your works..gold, silver or wood, hay or stubble etc. Salvation is not the issue at the Bema, but Rewards. In that light I think I might like to be Hal. “Lord I was a little ahead of the Curve on that One”. I am guilty of running ahead of the Lord often, but perhaps millions will be in Heaven because the Lord used him. I said in a previous post it is a good thing we are not still under the law, because false prophets were stoned. Would you pick a shining polished rock, John B? If it were just Mr Lindsey in discussion that would be one thing, but again if anyone care’s to read your post again. You called Gary Stearman and people like Cris and I as basically date setters, and that people like us need to basically repent in humility. I ask you to produce one article where Gary Stearman has set dates or whatever you consider to be by definition a “False Prophet”? This whole conversation deals with Gary Stearman, and not your straw man, Hal Lindsey. You went on the attack, and slandered him, and all Dispensationalist. Go for it John B…Keep Looking Up, James…PS I just couldn’t go for the long version today.

  18. BT says:

    There is such a vast amount of information to support this view, but one wouldn’t know it if they only listened to the same preachers and teachers they always do.

    Chris, you sound like a scholarly guy and probably have a really “good education”, but if any of what is posted in this link is true, I pray you examine your position carefully. (You may have been given an “indoctrination” more than an “education”. And don’t put it past Satan for a second to make it all sound really convincing, too!)

    You could probably say the same for this post, and I’d understand your apprehension and opposition, but first read it before you say it couldn’t be true.

    “…Untermeyer introduced Scofield to numerous Zionist and socialist leaders, including Samuel Gompers, Fiorello LaGuardia, Abraham Straus, Bernard Baruch and Jacob Schiff. These were the people who financed Scofield’s research trips to Oxford and arranged the publication and distribution of his concordance.

    “It is impossible to overstate the influence of Cyrus Scofield on twentieth-century Christian beliefs. The Scofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus’ Second Coming, and not the Zionist vision of a man-made New World Order.

    And it is precisely because Christians persist in this belief that they remain blind to the reality of Zion.

    Scofield served as the agent by which the Zionists paralyzed Christianity, while they prepared America for our final conquest.”…

    http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/scofield.htm

    If this is true, may eyes be opened to those facts.
    ~God bless.

  19. BT says:

    From the same link…
    (This is why it concerns me so much)-

    Quote:

    …”To realize that this story runs on a perfectly parallel path with the Talmudic political program of World Dominion — under the rule of MAN, who refers to himself as “the chosen”; to realize that the story is one and the same is startling to say the least.

    That parallel path is not intended to clash, conflict, or cross at some junction, but to so slowly and subtly merge together that we will simply open our eyes one day to the awareness that we are on the same path with two separate destinations in mind….”

    If that link isn’t according to one’s liking, then all I can do is suggest a personal study. I have given many points of reference thus far that I hope are helpful.

  20. BT says:

    I’m in no ways Catholic, so I overrode the prayers to Mary in Part 4 with my own prayers to Jesus, but I have to say, that Mr.O’Conner in the top featured video was one very brave guy to speak out against the Communists the way he did, and to call them out as the infiltrators of the church! (I think the official “infiltration” of Babylon started much,much sooner, but his message was really, really good. He revealed the Communist Manifesto, the Federal Reserve, the homosexual agenda, the feminist agenda, abortion as a sacrifice to Satan,…he even talks about the false teaching of the Rapture! He talks about the antichrist ruling from Israel and how the 1967 war advanced that goal.

    That was a good find, Chris.

    I just want to add a couple of quotes. (Along with the other quotes, we may as well see it as Phariseeism being the final victor?…Before Christ returns, that is. 🙂 )

    “Some call it Marxism — I call it Judaism.”
    (The American Bulletin, Rabbi S. Wise, May 5, 1935).

    “The Communist soul is the soul of Judaism. Hence it follows that, just as in the Russian revolution the triumph of Communism was the triumph of Judaism, so also in the triumph of fascism will triumph Judaism.”
    (A Program for the Jews and Humanity, Rabbi Harry Waton, p. 143-144).

    http://www.iamthewitness.com/doc/Jews.and.Communism.htm

    If you find this to be true, expose it and tell others!!!

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      There is just one problem I have with the video series by Father O’Conner. He continuously points to the nature of the antichrist being against God, an evil dictator and/or opposing the Catholic church as he called Henry viii a little antichrist.

      This, in my opinion, will lead many to look in the wrong direction. The antichrist will not oppose God (at least by outward appearances) but will retain all the power and authority of god. They will have their useful idiot from Islam rise up whom they will hang the sign vicar of Satan (aka antichrist) around his neck. They will have their fallguy and no one will recognise the real antichrist that defeats Islam and “saves” Israel.

      • hopeful_watcher says:

        To understand this slight of hand trickery, you have to ask yourself one question. How will anybody ever be duped into worshipping an antichrist if pretty much the entire world knows that one will come, his description is well understood and many in the church are looking for him?

        Quite simply you give them an antichrist in a manner they are expecting to be oppossed by the real antichrist.

        • BT says:

          1 John 2:18 already tells us “many antichrists have gone out into the world”, so it’s not surprising if there should be more given that title.

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            I won’t disagree with you there. I don’t even disagree with Father O’Conner pointing out the other historical figures who fit the bill. My only point is that I believe “The” Antichrist will look benevolent. That people like Hitler and Islamic Jihadists are pawns for the antichrist to overcome.

          • BT says:

            I wouldn’t doubt that the Jihadists are just another pawn to help eradicate the Christians, whom the anti-christ will despise just as much as the non-Talmudic Jews.

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            Could you ever see a time where Jesus loving Christians are killed at the hands of institutional Christians? In other words, a man who professes Christ, who the Jews claim is the savior, who proclaims he is God and will kill anyone who does not acknowledge that, including other Jesus loving Christians.

            That is what I am talking about. Those who are about religiousity and not the principles of Christ. This is not without historical precedence given that Jesus was crucified by the so-called righteous. And this man will claim his throne after he defeats the enemies of God, Islam and saves Israel from annihilation.

          • BT says:

            Sorry Hopeful, I’m not following you so well.

            Then again, I can’t understand why those who profess Christ will support Israel’s murder of Palestinians, many of whom are also Christian.

            All supposedly over LAND?

            That’s not Christ-like to me.

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            I am saying, in my opinion, I believe the antichrist and false prophet will be Christian, but certainly not Christ-like.

          • BT says:

            I’m torn between wanting to live to find out, and then part of me hopes to be long gone before then!

            We shall see, Hopeful.

            ~God bless~

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            BT, I understand your position. I am guessing you believe that the antichrist will be Jewish. Remember though that Jesus is in fact Jewish and when someone is the vicar of Christ and comes and saves Israel from destruction from Islam, then that Christian suddenly looks like the Jewish messiah. They become one in the same. Hence, this is a scenerio that meets both of our expectations.

            That he will be a Christian leader of the Jews, aka king of the Jews. Could you imagine the mourning and nashing of teeth when the Jews was the messiah all along?

        • john B says:

          Hi Hopeful; The inquisition was such that Papal Rome Killed in the name of Christ..Lest we forget! Something that she has managed to dispel and cover over by her post reformation agenda.
          This agenda and its purpose is of Jesuit origin, It’s objective was to hide the finger pointing to Rome as the seat of antichrist under the power of the Whorish spirit of Babylon..

          As I see it; The link of Papal Rome to Imperial Rome is evident of the whore’s transition of past civilisations .. We have been told that the Whore rides the beast, and that it only pertains to the last seven years civilisation! specifically the tribulation period…
          As I see it; it is the beast that carries the whore through the passage of time, The fact is that Papal Rome is still present Today, and that the whorish spirit that presides over Papal Rome can be traced through out history as the oppressor and persecutor of God’s people of past generations Rev18:24
          Yes she was active in the religious institution of the Sanhedrin.

          Many think that the Papacy has nothing in common with Talmudic Judaism!! (In ancient Palestine the Jews worked hand in hand with the Romans to crucify Christ.. Today the Jews work hand in hand with the Roman Catholic church in their effort to eradicate the Gospel of Christ) Let us Understand who the “Dogs of the circumcision” be Phil3:2

          The Jesuits are to be accredited that they have managed to hide the true identity of the Whore.
          Roman Catholicism is called Babylon because she is Babylonian.. Both The Talmudic jews and the Vatican share that common babylonian Root.. The link is there in the sixth head of the beast Rev17:10

          The similarities between the whorish woman in Ezekiel16:14-40 and the Mother of Harlots in Rev17:5 are one and the same.. I have pointed to this before, Roman catholicism is an esoteric version of Babylonian Judaism..That which appears Gentile outwardly is jewish at the core..
          Modern Judaism is given the outward appearance of The OT Law but it is not so, modern judaism is not Mosaic judaism It is Babylonian.. such is the Mystery!…

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            Amen John B. I follow your logic perfectly and I believe there is truth in it. Blessings to you. You are a great servant of God.

          • BT says:

            Yes, John B, an “Amen” from me, too. You spelled that out very well.

            Hopeful, I’m not even sure what the word Jew means at the moment.
            Does it mean a Hebrew, someone from Judea, an Israelite, or someone who follows Judaism?

            The meaning kinda gets twisted around.

            The scenario you laid out sounds plausible from one angle, but I can’t say I know that I can agree, but it’s an interesting idea. I can see why you say the Jews would accept such an individual, if he saved them from something else.

            My understanding is that this antichrist will rule from Israel and be accepted by the Jews, so yes, I assume he is one of them. (But what exactly is THAT?)

            We can wonder about the content of this book all the more when looking at what they state will be the “Quality of the Ruler”

            Quote:

            KING OF THE JEWS

            9. Only the king and the three who stood sponsor for him will know what is coming.

            10. In the person of the king who with unbending will is master of himself and of humanity all will discern as it were fate with its mysterious ways. None will know what the king wishes to attain by his dispositions, and therefore none will dare to stand across an unknown path.

            11. It is understood that the brain reservoir of the king must correspond in capacity to the plan of government it has to contain. It is for this reason that he will ascend the throne not otherwise than after examination of his mind by the aforesaid learned elders.

            12. That the people may know and love their king, it is indispensable for him to converse in the market-places with his people. This ensures the necessary clinching of the two forces which are now divided one from another by us by the terror.

            13. This terror was indispensable for us till the time comes for both these forces separately to fall under our influence.

            14. The king of the Jews must not be at the mercy of his passions, and especially of sensuality: on no side of his character must he give brute instincts power over his mind. Sensuality worse than all else disorganizes the capacities of the mind and clearness of views, distracting the thoughts to the worst and most brutal side of human activity.

            15. The prop of humanity in the person of the supreme lord of all the world of the holy seed of David must sacrifice to his people all personal inclinations.

            16. Our supreme lord must be of an exemplary irreproachability.
            http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion7.htm#PROTOCOL%20No.%2024

            (I think the goals of this book have been on target so far, according to plan. People can disagree all day about it’s origins, but the content is amazingly accurate.)…in my opinion, of course.

            So, will they continue to be? I don’t know. We’ll see what God allows. No harm in speculating.

  21. James says:

    Sandy, Thanks for the Rick Wiles info. I did listen, and would it surprise you to know that I sent a couple of e-mails. In his opening monologue, he started in on Zion, and I just went down some of the topic discussion on the board, and Zion also seems to be in discussion. My first e-mail asked him about “the Controversy over Zion”? I sent him a link that listed 20-30 different translations of Isaiah 34:8 I asked him to let me now if he doesn’t understand one of those translations? The only way he can possibly squirm out of that is try to make Israel the Body Of Christ..I will say again the Body of Christ was a Mystery until the Risen Lord revealed it to Paul. Israel and the Body of Christ are not the same. Isaiah was written approx seven-hundred years before Jesus or Paul where born. The Pastors were saying for most of the interview that there is only One Resurrection, but toward the end one did mention a better Resurrection. They mentioned that Lazarus was brought back to life, and Paul raised someone, but they died again. Which I totally agree, but my question was Matthew 27:52 I don’t think I have ever heard a sermon on this passage. Paul tells us that the Feasts of the Lord are pictures of Jesus. Jesus was the the Head of the First Fruit Resurrection, and this area of scripture reveals that many came out of their graves after Jesus was raised in his glorified body. Paul says that his resurrection was a picture of the harvest yet to come, and those who came out after him were a first-fruits of the future harvest. A fore taste. Many came out of their graves and were seen in Jerusalem. The scriptures say that Jesus took captivity captive. The thief on the cross was told he would be in Paradise that day with Jesus. If we are to believe Lazarus and the Rich Man then there are at least two chambers in Hades, but I am of the opinion, that one side is now empty. I believe that they wandered around Jerusalem just as Jesus was upon the earth for forty days, then on Ascension Day. Those who had been dead in their graves waiting for their Messiah where taken to Heaven. The scriptures tell us that for a believer to die today “is to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord” So no one goes to Paradise or Abraham’s Bosom anymore. I haven’t done a very good job of explaining the Feasts of the Lord. The harvest in Israel had of course different types..first fruits, gleanings, etc. God Bless, James

  22. sandy says:

    On a lighter note; Yahoo article asked the question, “Why does the pope wear red shoes”? I couldn’t help myself! I scrolled to the bottom to put my two-cents in………………. “Elvis took the blue ones”!!!!!!!!!

    Blessings,
    Sandy

  23. BT says:

    From walking in a river of blood would be my guess.
    (Symbolically speaking.)

    Or because it matches that awful cowboy hat thingy he wore once?

    What’s the real answer, Sandy? According to Yahoo, I mean.

    • sandy says:

      BT,
      I’ll just summarize a pretty lengthy explanation; “Sandy-style”. The devil wears Prada!

      Blessings,
      Sandy

  24. BT says:

    *groans* 🙂
    Thanks Sandy!
    I get it.

    “Answer Man: The devil wears Prada … but what about the pope’s red loafers?”
    http://www.bnd.com/2013/03/05/2520602/answer-man-are-benedict-xvis-red.html
    (I still think there is something more sinister to it!)

  25. BT says:

    I can’t say. I don’t have television and stay as far away from watching them on the internet as possible, because I can’t tolerate either one of them, so I can’t pick up on any nuances even if I wanted to.
    If it is in the media. that alone qualifies for “theater” in my opinion.

    Obama might genuinely resent being told what to do though.

    • sandy says:

      I’m like you , BT; nothing makes it to the public eye unless that’s what they want you to see. If they don’t want something in the news, it won’t be.

      In agreement with you also that Obama is SO arrogant that he don’t like being bossed around. I just wonder how his “puppet-masters” deal with him. According to Lindsey Williams, one of his handlers slapped him in the face prior to the first debate he and Romney had. That is supposedly why he flubbed so badly in that debate.

  26. BT says:

    Now THAT, I would have liked to see!

  27. Dreia says:

    Wow… Lots of reading (required)!

    Well, I was sent this link from Walid Shoebat Foundation. It is quite interesting.
    It really holds some meaning of why Christ followers will be beheaded in the synagogues:

    http://shoebat.com/2013/03/03/egyptian-cleric-mohammed-morsi-is-a-zionist/

  28. Dreia says:

    Also, Joel Richardson put out good books and DVDs on the topic of Islam being the religion of ancient Babylonia. Ba’al (or Baalim) is still to this day being worshipped. (In the book of Jeremiah God told the children NOT to call Him Ba’al.) I believe it is because Ba’al is not The Living and Merciful God, but the Prince of Death (Azazel/Abaddon/Apollo).

    http://shoebat.com/2013/03/03/egyptian-cleric-mohammed-morsi-is-a-zionist/

    Provided that Crislam will be the forefront spiritism in the western hemisphere, it is plausible that it has already found its place at the Vatican… hence, may be the real reason why Benedict quit(?), and especially when the cosmo-sciences & religion are both becoming entwined to form Crislam at an advance stage (in North Africa and America)!

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      Very true. What is interestingis that there are many pet theories out there where some say the root of evil will be Islam and another says no its the Vatican while yet another says not so it is Talmudism and the zionism. What we find is they are all really just flavors of the same beast and the lines that seperate them are becoming erased. They will emerge in ecumenical glory at some point with the only ones opposing them will atheists (which Satan has no use for and uses them as Canon fodder) and religious zeolots (who true Jesus loving Christians will be lumped in,with).

  29. BT says:

    Before you read this, understand it is not a personal attack on anyone for choosing to believe one way or another, I am merely making an observation and laying out my opinion. I know sometimes people get overly defensive when their ideas are challenged, but I’m not making this a personal commentary toward any one individual.

    …I’ve debated making this comment, but I do read the links when people post them, and so I will comment on something said on Shoebat’s blog. (I won’t comment on the numerous articles on line that say “Walid Shoebat Zionist Shill”. I personally don’t trust the guy.)

    Anyway, from the link, he refers to…. ” a Muslim Brotherhood leader who is on record as having referred to Jews as ‘apes and pigs’….”.

    This rubs me the wrong way, and the reason is that I have never read on any Christian “Watchmen” sites anything that says what the Jews have to say about the Gentiles. If you think what Muslims say is bad, I would say to do a search on “What the Talmud Says about Gentiles”, and if you don’t think Talmudism is alive and well, think again!

    I don’t know if anyone checked out any of the links I have posted, but this one lists many of those abhorrent things I was referring to, and worse!
    http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html

    Also, I left a link about Noahide Laws. A Talmudic undertaking that haslaid the groundwork into our government, endorsing beheading of Christians, and it’s all quite easily tracable and ought to set off genuine alarm bells.
    To me, those who do not speak out or acknowledge these things are either in denial or complicit. I’m no paid researcher, I don’t write books, but even I can find out these things.

    Like Hopeful says, we may be seeing a conglomeration of all these things, but to be so evasive on one certain element of this seems a bit misleading, in my opinion.

    • sandy says:

      I have watched the “Noahide Deception”. It is very disturbing. I don’t know, just my opinion, but all these groups; Talmudic, Islamic, etc…. seem to have one thing in common, that is hatred of Christians.

      I have since childhood been very interested in Bible prophecy. I remember asking my Mom years ago; “will the antichrist be a Jew”. I have never forgotten that. I had put it on the ‘back-burner’ for years, but the thought still lingers.

      I think there are gonna be MANY prophetic “curve balls”. I think things are gonna play out in ways that MANY never saw coming. I think there are gonna be MANY “slights’ of hand”. “Look over here – look over there” to distract attention from what’s REALLY going on.

      I think Obama is being painted as the antichrist. Some things are coming out that would make one wonder but I think if it were ACTUALLY him, “they” would be trying to hide it. It’s all about deception. It would not surprise me if “they” staged an assassination of Obama on this coming Good Friday, (March 29) which just happens to be a few days after his “triumphant” entry into Jerusalem, here in 2 or 3 weeks! (By the way, there has been much propaganda portraying him as A. Lincoln, and Lincoln was shot on Good Friday) I know this sounds “out there” but I don’t put ANYTHING past this bunch.

      Think about if they faked his death on Good Friday, and on the third day we heard breaking news: “He’s Alive”! Some would say “he’s the Messiah” – others would say “he’s the A/C”! And it would ALL be staged! I know this sounds crazy, even to me! But I’m watching things very closely. He seems to be doing things to mimic Christ, lately. I smell a BIG rat. It may not be what I’m thinking but something is rotten in Denmark, BESIDES the obvious.

      BT: All we can do is draw as near to God as possible. I believe as we go along that our Heavenly Father will reveal to us what we need to know, when we need to know it. He didn’t spare His ONLY Son…..so we could be saved. I don’t think He would withhold anything from us that might cause us to lose our way if we are TRULY seeking Him. Why would He put Himself through the loss of His Son, only to have us fail in the end. He has TOO MUCH invested in us to let that happen!

      God Bless, Sandy

  30. BT says:

    I hear ya, Sandy. That’s why I said before,the “bottom line” for me is “Jesus is Lord”, because He is going to be the line in the sand!

    When I said I have more questions than ever, questioning Jesus as Lord is not one of them. If anything, thanks to the adversary showing his MANY “hands”, and all being against Jesus Christ,..well, all I can say is “The enemy of my enemy is my friend”!

    When it comes to “prophecy” being fulfilled, I can’t help but think about that verse in Daniel, 9:27, and those two different interpretations! It looks like someone is trying awfully hard to fulfill that newer version of it, with “peace treaties” and all. That is what you will read of on your run of the mill “watchman” sites, and those sites are where you catch the most flack for voicing opinions that are contrary. (It reeks of “agendas” to me.)

    Seriously, that version defines the world view so many are putting their faith in now, watching for THOSE signs.

    Like you, I think we’ll all be thrown a lot of curves, and it is imperative we remain humble and lean on His grace to lead us through this maze we’re in. I sure can’t put it all together, but as long as I have enough to get through Today, that’s enough. He knows what’s in our hearts.

    Anyway, I’m really glad someone else has studied the Noahide Laws!
    Incredible, isn’t it?

  31. BT says:

    There’s a book I read a couple years ago, and if true, it is one of the most unsettling things I ever read.
    A short description of it here, among other things.

    http://rense.com/general76/noahide.htm

    “…A visionary book, published in 1932 by Jewish Talmudic scholar Dr. Michael Higger, describes the brave new Jewish world. 2 Higger says when a Jewish one-world ruler, messiah, comes, he will enforce Judaic monotheism. There will be no room for the “idolatrous.” “Only those who are convinced of Israel’s divine purpose in the world, will be welcome to join Israel in the upbuilding of an ideally spiritual life on earth. Israel, the ideal, righteous people, will thus become spiritually masters of the world” (p41)

    Before the messianic era begins, “in general, the peoples of the world will be divided into two main groups, the Israelitic and the non-Israelitic. The former will be righteous; they will live according to the wishes of one, universal God. All the other peoples, on the other hand, will be known for their detestable practices, idolatry, and similar acts of wickedness. They will be destroyed and will disappear from earth before the ushering in of the ideal era.” (p37) “Consequently idolatry and idol-worshippers, wicked people, unrighteous nations, will disappear from the earth.” (p39) Goodbye, Christians….”

    (For those who don’t know,…”idol-worshippers” are those who profess Jesus Christ!)
    Is this “the Rapture” Christians are to look forward to???
    They’d be “removed” alright! 🙁

  32. sandy says:

    Incredible, indeed! There is sooooo much “white noise”, who knows what to believe. I pray CONSTANTLY that God will “tune me in” to HIS channel. You know all the static you hear when you don’t have your radio EXACTLY on the proper channel, you can “sort of” hear your channel, but you still have all that static. That’s kind of what I’m talking about. I want to be EXACTLY on the mark so I can hear Him CLEARLY. To me, this is a must….especially now. We are inundated with scary news EVERYDAY. Who knows what is actually important and what is just white noise?

    In researching all these different things, some more difficult to consider than others, I think at least, we will be somewhat, a little more prepared than those who WILL NOT even consider the possibilities. As times moves along, we will maybe be able to tell what the “most likely” scenario will be and at least have a head-start.

    Pray for me, as I will you that the Holy Spirit will guide us in our pursuit of truth. We MUST have that!

    • BT says:

      Thank you, Sandy.

      It sure helps to know what different views exist.

      May God keep us centered and secure no matter how many waves try to knock us off our foundation, and may we continue to fearlessly search all things.

      I was in the Scofield camp for some time myself, until someone on a forum got my curiosity aroused and I began playing detective.

      And for the record, we could all be wrong about so much, but Jesus is right and true, and it is in Him, not our knowledge, that we have put our trust.

      Amen?

      • sandy says:

        Absolutely, AMEN!

        One thing that helped me put some things together that seemed to have “holes” that just didn’t fit was studying “Jacob’s” name being changed to “Israel”. Jacob means “surplanter”. It was prophetic of what was to come with the Jews rejecting Jesus as Messiah.

        Paul describes it as being “grafted in”.

        When Steven was being stoned, he saw Jesus “STANDING” at the right hand of the Father. Other places in the Bible says Jesus is “seated” at the right hand. So, what made Jesus stand up when Steven was being stoned? That was God’s “last straw” with Israel! Immediately after the stoning of Steven is when “Saul” has his Damascus Road experience and is commissioned to take the Gospel to the gentiles.

        The end-times are called “the time of JACOB’S trouble”. Meaning of Jacob? — Surplanter. Who “surplanted” the Jews (Israel)? Believers. (the church)

        I do believe at the very end, when Jesus returns, “they will look upon Him, who they pierced” and realize what they did, and repent.

        You know, just from using “common” sense; think about it – who do you think satan is REALLY after – the Jews who are right exactly where he wants them, or the people who are FAITHFULLY following Jesus, who has already defeated him? Who is the biggest threat to him? It’s a no-brainer! The time of Jacob’s trouble will be the extermination of Christians. I look at the Jewish people as a backslidden sibling to believers. I think we should pray for them to return, but that doesn’t mean we approve of their behavior while they are apostate. This is all MY TAKE. I could be wrong. We know in part and see through a glass darkly. I am open to any corrections the Lord wants to show me, but I AM DONE listening to the opinion of man. God knows my heart. I know I haven’t scratched the surface of what i want or need to know, but i am an eager student of the Holy Spirit. I can tell you are also.

        • BT says:

          Maybe someone else can chime in with more insight than I can give to that.

          One thing you have to say for the Literalists,…they ought to have no trouble identifying the beast of the sea with seven heads!

          Here we go complicating everything making things “symbolic”! 🙂

      • Sandy regarding when Jesus returns they will look upon him, realize what they did and repent.

        I too believe this, but consider a much more sinister scenerio. The Jews do this PRIOR to His return. And how might that happen? A false messiah. We are told they are coming, those that come in His name. Jesus warns us about it repeatedly.

        I have written an article about the dangers of such a scenerio. It’s called Salvation in the Balance. I’d be curious to know your thoughts.
        https://sites.google.com/site/woetous/salvation

  33. BT says:

    The Noahide Laws seem to define the “one world religion” as well. Only room for ONE God, the god of Judaism,.

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      BT, the Noahide Laws are evil no doubt. They also seem almost exactly like Sharia Law, based off oral tradition, birthed after Christ’s reign on earth, opposing all who oppose them with deadly circumstances.

      Wallid Shoebat also does not sit with me well, but for the same reasons of the theory of the AC being Jewish.

      I appreciate your sensitivity to not wanting to offend anyone and have them become defensive. I’ll say the same thing to you, not to try and sway your opinion, but to allow yourself the opportunity to be open to other possibilities. That is when we’ll be decieved, is when we are locked into an opinion and won’t budge.

      So to my point and one I hope you’ll just keep on the back burner is every evil we see manifest on earth (and that includes the Noahide Laws and the Jewish oral tradition) are pawns in the big game and are catalysts to bring about the antichrist. We are so busy looking for the “bad” guy, that we miss the good guy who stuck a knife in our back.

      It is my opinion, that the AC will not come from zeolots but will come from the moderates. The ones everyone embraces because they are scared out the zeolots.

      Again, not to change your mind, but to plant a seed. If we are with the spirit then the truth will reveal itself. As long as we don’t remain dogmatic and lean on our own understanding, then we will recognise it as truth.
      Peace and blessings to you.

      • Dreia says:

        I wouldn’t worry so much about Walid Shoebat. It is those who are on board with the ecumenical church that is building the bridge from New Testament to Islam! That is where the issue rests!

        Islam denies that God has a Son. So do the Noahide members. But, Noahide society is not interested in ecumenical services. BUT Islam is! They’ve already established Crislam since the 1980’s.

        Also, a hint of what Christ Yeshua Jesus said is that “No one after me come to the Father.” This line alone tells me that He was speaking to an audience who (will) believe that one will come after Christ Yeshua Jesus. And quess what… Islam became a religion in 6th century.

        Another note: Take a good read of Isaiah 63. Edom is where today? (Ammon = Jordan; Aram = Saudi Arabia), we can go on. But looking at those old lands, they are the stomping grounds of Islam.

        Read Revelation 19:12-13, also.

        So, as Walid Shoebat converted to Christianity, I wouldn’t be concerned about him, because he declared Jesus as The Son of God and His Salvation (Yeshua) and Hope (Hatikvah)!

        To all, blessings and Shalom,
        Dreia

  34. BT says:

    Chris,

    For all I know, you may have covered these topics elsewhere and I am not aware of it.
    I wasn’t voicing criticism of you in any of these posts.

    Just wanted you to know.
    Maybe some of this is new to you?
    If it is, I hope you pray about it and see where it leads you.

    ~God bless~

  35. sandy says:

    James, I listened to Trunews March 7 episode and Mr. Wiles addresses ” all those who emailed” him about the show on the prior day. I tell you this because you said you sent him a couple of emails.

    Blessings,
    Sandy

    • James says:

      Sandy, Thanks, I did also and I e-mailed a friend about his comments, and told him that Mr. Wiles was jumping today. Blessings to you too, James

  36. James says:

    Concerning who might be the AC. There is a fellow who had an internet ministry for several years. He still sends out some e-mails, but he is no longer in a position to produce his program. I have found his take about the AC very interesting. The Arab Spring, which anyone could spend hours discussing, has left Jordan basically unscathed, and I have often wondered why? His take and I will try to be brief. He wrote about where the “Little Horn” plucks up three of the countries, and he said this many years ago would be Iraq, Libya, and Syria. The “Little Horn” presented to the Arab nations many years ago a peace plan with Israel, I believe he called the “Two Basket Plan”? There were three countries who said NO to this peace plan, and they where Iraq, Libya and Syria. Syria is the last in the process of being uprooted now? Many are now saying that the Eastern side of the Old Roman Empire, which lasted a 1,000 years longer than the Western side, which is basically Muslim will produce the AC. Walid Shoebat and Joel Richardson both believe this I think? The interesting thing about King Abdullah of Jordan is his country is made up of about 70% Palestinian, and he is married to a beautiful Palestinian woman. If this Prophecy teacher is correct Jordan who controls the Temple Mount, and King Abdullah of Jordan whom I believe is a 42nd generational descendant of Mohammad (Hashemite Kingdom) from his father’s side would be a Muslim. This is where it gets very interesting on his mother’s side, and I have spent several hours looking for further info, but I am not sure? Maybe Jesus will not come as soon as we think, and Cris will write another book about King Abdullah? His mother is suppose to be a Jewish woman from England with a last name of Gardner, who was married to King Hussein of Jordan. I have a friend who’s daughter married a man, and I found this out, not long after I heard about the Gardner name for King Abdullah’s mother. His son- in- law is Jewish. Also as a side note I chuckle at this one the movie “Being There” which came out in 79 with a man playing the lead of “Chauncey Gardner” was Peter Sellers, who in real life was Jewish. So Gardner if true from his mother’s side (Jews are a matriarchal society) would make King Abdullah a Jew. A descendant of Muslim roots and a descendant of Jewish roots. And Jordan controls the Temple Mount, which of course is one of the central pieces of Daniel’s prophecy. A Man with a Plan? Food for Thought…James

    • Perhaps. Also, perhaps King Abdullah is the fall guy. The one the world believes to be the antichrist, so that the “good” benevolent antichrist overthrows him and his Islamic alliance.

      That has been my point. Yes we should evaluate evil and oppose it, but I am cautious of when public opinion starts to point out who is righteous and who is unrighteous, because that is for God alone to define. When we focus narrowly on evil, then we miss the yeast of evil growing in our own camp.

      Woe to us when good defeats evil. https://sites.google.com/site/woetous/

      • James says:

        When you think of Cris’ and Tom Horn’s work dovetailing with the Vatican Accord recently signed with Israel, and contemplate King Abdullah and the Temple Mount…it looks Glovey

    • James says:

      Sandy, God Bless you and Thanks. We are more than Conquerors through Jesus, and sadly in this fallen world, we fail to let his Holy Spirit live through us most of the time. I didn’t realize that about the Club of Rome..Keep Looking Up, James

    • Dreia says:

      James,

      You’re on to something!!

      I just wrote the following for a response up above. Here it is:

      I wouldn’t worry so much about Walid Shoebat. It is those who are on board with the ecumenical church that is building the bridge from New Testament to Islam! That is where the issue rests!

      Islam denies that God has a Son. So do the Noahide members. But, Noahide society is not interested in ecumenical services. BUT Islam is! They’ve already established Crislam since the 1980′s.

      Also, a hint of what Christ Yeshua Jesus said is that “No one after me come to the Father.” This line alone tells me that He was speaking to an audience who (will) believe that one will come after Christ Yeshua Jesus. And quess what… Islam became a religion in 6th century.

      Another note: Take a good read of Isaiah 63. Edom is where today? (Ammon = Jordan; Aram = Saudi Arabia), we can go on. But looking at those old lands, they are the stomping grounds of Islam.

      Read Revelation 19:12-13, also.

      So, as Walid Shoebat converted to Christianity, I wouldn’t be concerned about him, because he declared Jesus as The Son of God and His Salvation (Yeshua) and Hope (Hatikvah)!

      To all, blessings and Shalom,
      Dreia

      • James says:

        Dreia, I believe we are? Just a quick note as I was reading your comments..Catholicism and Islam have several things in common. I believe a rosary, might be wrong, but one thing definitely Fatima..the visions (secrets) and Fatima was Muhammad’s daughter..God Bless, Jimmy There are many things coming together

        • Dreia says:

          Fatima was the young lady who walked into his life after the death of his first wife Kadijah and second wife Aishah. I believe after he went madly insane when he discovered Kadijah’s death, that he sought upon a relief. But not before being in fights amongst those who lived in further areas of Aram (they were thought to be Seraphim/ Nephalim).

          Many Muslims don’t know that Kadijah was Coptic Christian! So, Muhammad believed in The Holy Bible.

          The stuff of after his bouts of battles and even death are very interesting, however.

          Robert Spencer wrote a book about his life. It is quite moving.

          • Dreia says:

            Hi Sandy,

            Absolutely! Always I do pray and always I ask for repetence in His Holy Son’s Name, and that is Jesus Yeshua Christ Our Lord.

            I don’t mind sharing. It’s no secret, Sandy.

            In any event, blessings to you and all,
            Dreia

          • Dreia says:

            Hi Sandy,

            Absolutely! Always do I pray and always I ask for repetence in His Holy Son’s Name, and that is Jesus Yeshua Christ Our Lord.

            I don’t mind sharing. It’s no secret, Sandy.

            In any event, blessings to you and all,
            Dreia

  37. James says:

    John B… If the Lord has a sense of humor? We will probably be seated next to each other at the “Marriage Supper of the Lamb”..God Bless, James

  38. BT says:

    To me, being right or wrong isn’t the issue. I’m not a teacher or a preacher, nor is my career dependent on my views being popular. As long as I am “right” with God, that is all I care about.

    Now, regarding “the Jews”…I am going back to scripture when Jesus warned us of those who “say they are Jews but are not”. (Khazarians, maybe?) Or those who practice Judaism and call themselves Jews, but are not from Judea or any other such lineage? We need to know what is meant by the word “Jew” and it’s context. (Khazarians adopted the religion of Judaism and call themselves Jews.)

    Jesus didn’t warn us about Muslims, did He? I know Islam has it’s many faults, in many ways mirroring Judaism, but Muslims at least claim that Jesus was a prophet, unlike Judaism/Talmudism, which says Jesus was a sorcerer and now he is burning in excrement in hell!

    Like I said, I’m not concerned that I need to be right on any of this. I’m just speculating and sharing things I see.
    It’s all going to happen however it’s meant to happen, and by God’s grace, we will stay on the right path and not be deceived into making allegiences with anyone or anything we shouldn’t.

    Now, I’m off to enjoy a beautiful day out in God’s creation and put all the ugliness of the adversary behind me for a while.

    I pray you all have a blessed day as well.

    🙂

  39. john B says:

    I wish to share my view on the Lie associated with the end-Time deception..
    I cannot reconcile the passage of 2Thes2:1-12 with an all out alien deception being “The Lie” referred by Apostle Paul.
    “The one whose coming (man of Sin) in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power, signs and false wonders, and with all deception of wickedness for those who perish”….. Vs9,10

    The focus of the passage is on the (man of sin) and his deceptive satanic powers (his false signs and wonders) for the purpose of the “exaltation of himself as an object of worship above all Gods” Vs4.
    Therefore; following the precepts of rightly dividing the Word by keeping context, “the Lie” has to be in relation to These manifestations of deception by the (man of sin) in order to exhibit his authority status by the acquiring of False Worship. This also agrees with the miracle working Two Horned False prophet (antichrist) manifesting the Voice of the Dragon issuing in the image Worship of the beast…Rev13:11-13.

    Furthermore; V11 says that “God will send a strong delusion’ upon those perishing that they would believe “The Lie” (what is false)
    (Understanding that The delusion is not the deception), but the giving over of the person by God in order that the lie is believed, that is the delusion… A delusion wrought by the very hand of God!

    The delusion is not an external factor as are the false signs and wonders, God is not the worker if deceit! it is an ‘internal factor’ upon the mind of those who regect the Love of the Truth in order that they “might believe what is False Vs11..
    It is in the same context of Rom1:26. that God is giving over the Homosexual to reprobate minds allowing them to justify their abomination backed by Government legislation. (It is the way that they think themselves right, because God has given them over to reprobate minds.

    So; There are many avenues of deception being used by the Devil in every sphere of humanity in order to prevent the truth of the Gospel reaching lost souls. The UFO phenomenon is but one among many!

    The (man of sin) as I see it in accord with the Text will be the Climax of all deception and this will be in accord with God’s will, By God’s hand, in sending “the strong delusion upon the minds of all in a Christ rejecting wicked world, The outcome will be the Worship the Image of the Beast. Rev13:15. by the instrumentality of the Man of Sin, “that Lawless one whom the Lord will slay with the breath of his mouth by the appearance of His coming”Vs8

    Blessings

    john b.

    • sandy says:

      JohnB,
      This has also crossed my mind, JohnB…..about what the ‘delusion’ could be. The first thing I thought of was something having to do with the sun – such as solar flares, CME’s, etc…..so I looked it up and this sort of activity Can have some “weird” effects on your body AND MIND, including confused and/or bizarre THINKING and behavior. I was shocked, actually!

      This is only one of MANY possibilities. It behooves us all to try, whole-heartedly, to know what the truth is, so that we CAN……love it.

      Blessings,
      Sandy

  40. BT says:

    I just listened to this last night. I think maybe some here would like it also, so if you have some free time or just want to listen to it in the background,,,,,it’s thought-provoking stuff! (Talks a lot about Islam,too.)

    http://reasonradionetwork.com/20110728/the-orthodox-nationalist-khazaria

    Matt Johnson discusses:

    The Khazar empire;
    Khazaria and the Talmud;
    Khazar economy based on slavery;
    The reason the Khazars converted to Talmudism;
    The reasons for the fall of Khazaria;
    Khazaria and Anti-Christ.

  41. BT says:

    A different interpretation of Edom/Edomites than alluded to in a previous post.
    Considering the sources, it seems a valid argument.
    (Posting without link as post doesn’t seem able to go through otherwise at the moment.)
    I’m adding this in addition to the download previously posted, because not everyone wants to listen to something with no idea what It is even slightly covering.
    This ought to explain why I feel it is important, especially with all the statements that Israel is “the Jews regathered”.
    This answers the question,”Which Jews?!”

    Quote:

    “…The struggle of nations, which began in Rebekah’s womb, continued as these two boys grew to manhood, and it endures today in their modern-day descendants. Ezekiel 35:5 and Amos 1:11 speak of the Edomites’ “perpetual hatred” and “wrath forever” toward Israelites. But “who is who” in this continuing struggle? It is recorded in Genesis 36 that Esau is Edom and that he was the father of the Edomites. However, most people do not know who the Edomites became. The following four witnesses, all of them JEWISH, testify to the Edomites’ new identity:

    …in the days of John Hyrcanus (end of the second century B.C.E.) … the [non-Israelite] Edomites became a section of the Jewish people. “EDOM,” Encyclopaedia Judaica (Jerusalem, Israel: Encyclopaedia Judaica Company, 1971) Vol. 6, p. 378

    They [the non-Israelite Edomites] were then incorporated with the Jewish nation…. “EDOM, IDUMEA,” The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Vol. V, p. 41

    …from then on they [the non-Israelite Edomites] constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod [King of Judea] being one of their descendants. “EDOM (Idumea),” The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia (Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1977) p. 589

    …they [the Edomites] were hereafter no other than [non-Israelite] Jews. Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279

    It was the progeny of these same “Jews” who, by way of interbreeding, became part of the Khazar kingdom, and who, between the seventh and ninth centuries AD, adopted the religion of Judaism. According to the previously cited Jewish encyclopedias, it was these Khazar Jews who were the progenitors of the vast majority of today’s Jewish people, including today’s Zionist Jews who spuriously claim right to the land of Israel, including that which was previously owned and controlled by the Palestinian Arabs. Consequently, the majority of today’s Jewish people are known as “Jews” not because they are descended from Jacob/Israel but rather because their Edomite/Khazar progenitors adopted the religion of Judaism. The authors of The Jewish Almanac (1980) obviously recognized that today’s Jews are rarely genetic Israelites….”

  42. BT says:

    Could this be one of the greatest End-Times Delusions?

    ….”A THOUSAND YEARS before the establishment of the Modern State of Israel, there existed a Jewish kingdom in the eastern fringes of Europe, astride the Don and Volga rivers…” So begins a thesis by Jewish author Kevin Alan Brook. The kingdom of which he speaks appears at first consideration to be comprised of nearly as much disinformation, misinformation, “myth”information, and, curiously, NO-information as there is actual provable historical fact. Yet upon closer scrutiny this kingdom, known as Khazaria, or the Kingdom of the Khazars, is clearly revealed in a vast body of historical evidence, much of which has come to light only in the last three to five decades.

    This mysterious kingdom, which has sculpted our modern world to an astounding (and alarming) degree, once occupied an immense land area of over a million square miles extending from western Hungary/Austria eastward to the Aural Sea, north to the Upper Volga, and its southern region extending to the Caucasus Mountains between the Black and Caspian seas. It was at that time literally the largest country on earth. It has only been in the last several decades, however, that greater documented evidence from ancient manuscripts has come to light and revealed the astonishing historical truth of this ancient kingdom and its connection to the origins of modern-day Israel.

    Though little known to the West, and, for that matter, to even those currently occupying its ancestral land, the Khazar kingdom has been responsible for substantially shaping the history and political landscape of Europe and specifically Western Asia, but also to a remarkable degree the entirety of human events on this planet.

    Arthur Koestler, author of The Thirteenth Tribe, easily the most expansive single work on the subject, states, “The story of the Khazar Empire, as it slowly emerges from the past, begins to look like the most cruel hoax which history has ever perpetrated.” 1

    This is the story of a kingdom of belligerent, warlike Caucasian nomads, having no linked ancestry with anything Israelite this side of Noah, yet adopting Talmudic Judaism and becoming the dominant — and virtually only — current force in twenty-first century international Jewry.”….

    http://www.apfn.org/thewinds/library/khazars.html

  43. BT says:

    I don’t know if there is any way to find out.
    I made note of this a while back:

    “The tribal identities are now extinct due to Herod destroying all the genealogical records in 68 AD as recorded by the Jewish historian of that time, Flavius Josephus.”

  44. BT says:

    In any case, Christ knows His own. There is no other way to salvation but by Him.

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