Why Eschatology Matters Part IV: Postmillennialism

continued from Why Eschatology Matters Part IV

II. Post-millennial View: The belief that Christ will physically return to the earth only after a non-literal millennium is completed. Postmillennialism is quite optimistic about the end times in that he essential idea is that the church will exercise a transformational positive social influence in history.[1] Thus, the world is allegedly improving morally and spiritually every year. This may have seemed to be so historically, as many of the reformers, early-American colonists and puritans shared this view. Most theologians have abandoned it in the twentieth century after the two world wars and subsequent nuclear age anxiety. Today this view has been appropriated by the charismatic movement and provides the impetus for dominion or “kingdom now” theology. Dominionists believe they have a mandate to impose the kingdom by earthly means. They even believe it is their responsibility to initiate the second coming of Christ.[2]

A. Basic Premises:

i. Millennium: Literally “after the thousand years.” Some suppose the era of peace is still in the future but the majority holds that it began with the first advent of Christ and is continuing until the gospel conquers the world. The word thousand is considered symbolic of a long period of time.

ii. Resurrection: This view also maintains that there is only one resurrection much like their amillennial counterparts. They employ the same strategy of spiritualization to Revelation 20:4-5.

iii. The Binding of Satan: Satan is currently bound by the power of gospel and cannot deceive the nations.[3]

iv. The Reign of Christ: Christ reigns now in the hearts of believers. Yet, Christians are to conquer the unbelieving world through the spread of the gospel, in the power of the Holy Spirit. However, there is a disturbing trend leaning toward the emphasis of nonspiritual means.

v. The Kingdom of God: The Kingdom is manifested now in the church and increasing in its positive influence over the earth. There is a popular movement today to reclaim the “seven mountains of culture” that is derivative of this idea.[4] Even more strident, Dominionists think they are to accomplish this by military or legal force if necessary.

vi. Israel: They argue that the New Testament church became the “Israel of God” of which Paul speaks in Galatians 6:16.[5] They use the same arguments for supersessionism as the amillennialist in that God’s Old Testament covenants were conditional and no longer binding. See Micah 4:8 vs. Replacement Theology.

vii. Hermeneutic: A very similar approach to the amillennialist is used. Prophecy is understood to be preponderantly symbolic and open to allegorical interpretation. For example, “Israel” now means the church and the word “thousand” simply means an indeterminate long period of time.

B. Points of Strength:

i. Postmillennialism’s greatest strength is its optimism regarding the kingdom of God and its ability to transform the nations of the earth before Christ returns.[6]

ii. The bible promises universal gospel proclamation (Matt. 28:18–20).

iii. They also argue that the word “thousand” is used symbolically in scripture (cf. 1 Chron. 16:15; Ps. 50:10).

C. Points of Weakness:

i. Again a simple reading of the biblical text does not lead to this conclusion. The postmillennial interpretation of Rev. 19-20 seems arbitrarily imposed upon the text.

ii. Jesus clearly taught that “many will fall away”, “lawlessness will be increased” and that “the love of many will grow cold” at the time world evangelization is completed (Matt 24:10-14). In the parable of the Tares in Mt. 13:36-43, Jesus taught that evil people will continue to exist alongside of God’s redeemed people until the time of harvest. The clear implication of this parable is that Satan’s kingdom will continue to exist and expand as long as God’s kingdom grows, until Christ returns.

iii. The Apostles taught increasing apostasy toward the end of the age (2 Thess. 2:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:1,2 Tim. 3:1-5, 2 Tim 4:3-4, 2 Pet. 3:3).

iv. As explained under amillennial weakness ii, the two resurrections of Rev. 20:5 and Rev. 20:13 are described as are bodily and distinct.

v. As stated under amillennialism, the word “thousand” is used literally in the vast majority of its occurrences in the biblical text. The fact that it is repeated 5 times in Revelation 20:1-6 should give pause.

vi. History and current events do not support the idea that things are getting better for Christians. In fact, quite the opposite is true. According to the World Evangelical Alliance, over 200 million Christians in at least 60 countries are denied basic human rights solely because of their faith. David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, and Peter F. Crossing in their 2009 report in the International Bulletin of Missionary Research (Vol. 33, No. 1: 32) estimate that if current trends continue, by 2025, an average of 210,000 Christians will be martyred annually.[7]

vii. Postmillennialism undermines the NT emphasis on the church’s imminent expectation of Christ’s return.  It undermines the essential element of watchfulness to the NT church. See 1 Cor. 16:22; Rom. 13:11-12; Phil. 4:5; Jas. 5:8; 1 Pt. 4:7; 1 Jn. 2:18; Rev. 1:3; 22:20.

viii. The OT identifies the “golden age” with the New Heavens and New Earth which come only after the millennium of Rev. 20 (Rev. 21-22).

ix. Scripture never teaches the progressive and eventual wholesale reconstruction of society (i.e. 7 mountains of culture) according to Christian principles prior to Christ’s return.

x. The Bible teaches that when Jesus returns, he is at war. The idea that he returns to receive a kingdom accomplished by the church is simply incoherent.  “Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.” (1 Co 15:24, Zec. 14:3, 2 Thes. 2:8, Rev. 19:15)

xi. Postmillennialism minimizes one of the primary experiences that will characterize the church and all Christians throughout this present age, suffering with Christ (2 Tim 2:3, 1 Pet. 4:13, 2 Thes.1:5, Rev.6:10). For instance, Romans 8:18-25 speaks of creation groaning for redemption, and that we “wait for it with patience” not take it by political means or force. To the contrary, much like Christ at His first coming, the church actually wins by losing…

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height
nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the
love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Ro 8:36-39)

Next up Premillennialism


[1]Sproul, The Last Days, 9.
[2]Walter A. Elwell and Philip Wesley Comfort, Tyndale Bible Dictionary, Tyndale reference library (Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers, 2001), 896.
[3] Hindson, Revelation, 86.
[4] Os Hillman. Reclaiming the 7 Mountains of Culture. 2010. http://www.reclaim7mountains.com/ (accessed 06 11, 2010).
[5]Sproul, The Last Days, 9.
[6]Geisler, Systematic Theology, 550.
[7]Unattributed. How Many Christians Killed for their Faith Every Year. http://www.persecution.net/faq-stats.htm (accessed 06/10/2010).

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. Whrose says:

    Great study Cris. Thank you for presenting it!

    One thing that has always concerned me when participating in discussions in Christian forums is how heated rapture and prophecy debates may evolve, Interestingly, during such debating one never gets the basic information of the persons Millennial belief up front which makes all the difference in understanding a persons use of scripture in the debate. Discerning this has given me a better understanding of my brother.

    It took me quite awhile to come to the conclusion that such debates not only describe ones eschatology but also their hermeneutic, role of the Church today, and world view of current events.

    Preterism often goes hand in hand with postmillennialism as well.

    Does eschatology matter? Absolutely!!!

    • Cris Putnam says:

      I agree, a lot of comes down to how willing someone is to allegorize. You simply cannot come to post or amillennial positions by taking the text at face value. Those views are imposed on the text and usually for another reason. I am going to address preterism and replacement theology as well following my premillennial breakdown.

      The best argument against preterism comes from John’s own disciple Polycarp and then Iranaeus, they had direct contact with John and they were not preterists. Seems like John would have told them that the prophecy was fulfilled, but no John’s own disciples were still expecting a future Antichrist long after Rome sacked Jerusalem.

  2. Roger says:

    There is a simple order of events in Revelation 20 which is verified in Revelation 6 and Matthew 24.
    1. Resurrection of the martyrs – first resurrection.
    2. Satan bound for 1000 years
    3. Martyrs reign with Christ for 1000 years.
    4. Satan loosed.
    5. Final battle.
    6. Satan cast into everlasting fire and tormented eternally.
    7. Second and final resurrection.
    8. Judgment.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Roger, Thanks for your comment! You are correct, I agree that would be the order that goes with Premillennialism which is my view. This series addressed the 3 views that Christians have held historically and this particular one was postmillennialism which used to the dominant position until the mid 20th century.

  3. Roger says:

    Cris, notice that the final resurrection (7) is after everything but the “wrath of God” and the final judgment. The Book of Life is the “key” in this – all those who have salvation must be in it, there is no rapture of the Church. Other than the martyrs in the first resurrection, everyone else will be judged at one time – after the second resurrection. The Church does not have any special privileges; we are all believers and in the same Book whether we attend any church or not. God has no respect of person – Romans 2:11.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Hey Roger!
      Thanks for your comment, I agree that there is no rapture visible in Revelation 20 but the text clearly says that all believers who did not worship the beast are resurrected from the dead in the first resurrection. To me that means all believers, not just martyrs. It is 2 groups 1) martyrs and 2) those who did not worship the beast. If you are a faithful Christian then you should not have worshiped the beast no matter when you lived. Correct?

      I think only the people who are not in the book face judgment. It seems to me that everyone who faces the Great White throne is unsaved, it is simply a matter of the degree of punishment.

  4. Roger says:

    Only martyrs are in the first resurrection (Christ died for us and those that die for Him are special):
    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Notice the Book of Life is not opened until the second resurrection:
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    It is all very simple if we just accept what it says.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      I accept what it says but I am afraid your translation is leading you astray here. You cited “I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, ” which makes it sound like its one group but that is not a very accurate translation. The NASB reads

      “Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.(Re 20:4)

      ESV renders:

      “Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.(Re 20:4)

      The NA27 Greek manuscript reads:

      4 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπʼ αὐτοὺς καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς, καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν. καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.

      Which leads me to think it is 2 groups of people in the original text, not one. But it depends on how you render the Greek. So perhaps it is not clear enough to be dogmatic.

      I hope that helps. God bless

  5. Roger says:

    Only the martyrs who have been killed will be with Christ for 1000 years. Many have been killed; even today it is happening; and many more will be.
    Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

    All others that are written in the books (all that are not martyrs) will be in the second resurrection after the 1000 years.
    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    His word is very clear.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Roger –
      You did not reply to the issues I raised above, the Greek text is what matters when arguing precision details, not your argument from a English translation and again thanks for sharing your personal view but no scholars I a aware of that read the original inspired Greek text agree with you, be careful about deriving personal interpretations that are so far afield from what great men of God have concluded for the last 2000 years of study. Obviously, this issue is not as clear as you think.

      • Stu says:

        Chris,

        Doesn’t the beast have heads that rule in multiple generations (time periods)?
        I know the Daniel passages cling closely to the Roman Empire, but even if the heads in revelation were not just the Roman Empire, I am starting to find evidence for nimrod to be one of the heads that was and is the eighth with the Mortal headwound that was healed. If that’s true, wouldn’t all those generations be eligible for the reigning and ruling (even beyond the rewards for not worshiping the last And final beast?) this seems to include a lot more than just end time Christians.

        The millenial reign (to me) is that principle of Christ doesn’t just abort a project, he finishes it. Whether it’s the law or our purposes on this earth, I see the millenial reign as being that time that we get to rule like we should have had the fall never happened. He had purpose back then and he will see it fulfilled on this earth before he consumes it along with the heavens with fire and establishes a new thing, a new timepiece with God. He satisfies his plans and moves forward.

        I’m of the mindset that all the redeemed will be with him when he comes back and we will always be with him. I may or may not have a throne to sit on but I hope to have something to do there.

        Thanks

  6. Roger says:

    Cris, I have read the Greek and I did reply to your statement. You do not want to accept the fact; your mind is made up. I am not going to address the issue any further than what is below:

    9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

    BTW: I do not accept anything written in the ESV – Westcott-Hort Greek is unacceptable.

  7. Stu says:

    One thing that is hard to reconcile is that qualifiers of those who reign with Christ in the “millennium” are that you were beheaded or faced the beast and didn’t cave in, etc. how can getting your head whacked off give you the ability to let Christ reign and rule through you on the earth ?

    • Stu says:

      This is where amillenialsim doesn’t line up with the information

    • Roger says:

      Stu, you do not know the scriptures: John 15:13 “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. (NKJV)

      Christ came and laid down His life for us because He could not do anything greater and the same is true with us. The martyrs that are killed for their witness of Christ cannot do anything greater and they will receive the gratitude of Christ and allow them to reign with Him during the millennium.

      Also, those who think that the unsaved will stand in judgement and the the first resurrection is for the just and the second for the unjust (NKJV):
      Psalms 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, Nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
      Matthew 5:8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
      Luke 21:36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
      Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

      Rev 20:4 is resurrection of martyrs. Rev 20:12 is the resurrection of those written in the Book of Life and the unsaved are not written there.

      • Stu says:

        No argument about the resurrection of the martyrs. Don’t misunderstand my statement. This comment could have gone under the amillenialsim section… Oops. The fact that these martyrs had to leave their body and faced the beast takes this reigning with Christ thing past allegory. They had to put on immortality in order to inherit this privilege, it wasn’t something that could be attained in a mortal state.
        I think that 1 thes 4:17 claims that when we are harpedzo’ed to Christ at his coming, pre judgment, we will ever be with Jesus whenever the timing of it shakes out. The gospels confirm that where ever he is there we will also be. Christ reigning with the martyrs is true but from that point forward , the saints put on immortality and will always be with Him.

        Those that worshipped the beast in rev 19:20-21 were not thrown directly into the fire, the beast and false prophet were thrown in alive, the others we killed with the sword of His mouth. Their life was terminated and fate sealed. This puts those people I. The category of the rest of the dead.

        • Roger says:

          You are correct in what you said, the time frame may need to be addressed in order to get a complete understanding. I will not go into depth, but 1 Thess 4:17 needs to be in context with vs 15-16; then it needs to be understood when Christ will return and that is the part that seems to be misunderstood – although the scripture states that Christ will return once, there are a lot who say He is coming twice without any scriptural basis. I think churches use this “theory” to make their congregations feel good and not feel good or any church based theology will change what God has laid out for Christ to do.

  8. Stu says:

    Roger

    I wanted to jump Into the conversation because when a lot of evidence is presented on these forums, it offers a great opportunity we wouldn’t get most any other place (thanks Chris for hosting this)

    So I’m not coming after you, you just happened to be the last guy to write.
    In the spirit of evidence I want to add this, not to attack.

    I think there is scriptural evidence that the ungodly will be standing before the judgement throne of Christ.

    The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/114/rev.20.13.nkjv

    Death and Hades gives up the dead in front of the throne. For Christians death is a sting, not a prison, so anyone coming out of either of those two places have some serious reconing to face with God

    “Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:14-15‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/114/rev.20.14-15.nkjv

    In sequence we find the very prison that those people were in ( spiritual entities or the like) are cast into the fire. The. The very next peice is that those who were dead had to stand before Christ and face the book of life. At that time the condemned people will go to the fire.

    “Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.””
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:9-11‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/114/rev.14.9-11.nkjv

    This confirms the fate of those who worship the beast and all this is done in the presence of the lord and his holy angels… And will continue forever. The beast worshiper are cut out of their bodies and sealed in death or hades (which ever one ). Their torment is not consummated until they stand before the white throne and the book of life.

    I think this verse speaks also to the fact that the ungodly will stand before the throne.

    Then there’s the sheep and goat thing in Matthew where the goats go to the flames. This is one that I’m am still studying.

    http://bible.com/114/mat.25.31-32.nkjv

    I still find evidence that 1 thes 4 is speaking about the rapture or the gathering of the saints at the coming of Christ
    Also in Mathew

    “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:30-31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    http://bible.com/114/mat.24.30-31.nkjv
    All of this evidence and the timeline in rev 19 and 20 points at Jesus coming in his greatness to set up his kingdom (millennial reign). All that to say this. The gathering has evidence for pre millennial gathering. (I am leaning towards post trib pre wrath) but that isn’t the topic. It comes back around to 1thes 4 which says when he comes he will gather what is his, pour out his vengeance and we will always be with him (even to the end of the age).

    I don’t disagree one minuite that my brother who was killed for Christ deserves more reward than me if I die of old age. You are correct that there is no greater love. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t degrees of reward. Something I am curious about is when Paul says give yourselves to God as a living sacrifice. What is the reward for that? I believe heb 11:6 says that there could possibly be two rewards, those who believe he is who he says he is, and those that sought him diligently and did something more with their faith.

    • Roger says:

      The book of Daniel will shed light on this: Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

      So you are correct about the resurrection of saved and unsaved, the issue is that the unsaved will not stand in judgement as stated in Ps 1:5 and others I gave you before. The only reference to any judgement of the unsaved is given Rev 20:15 and if they are not written in the Book, then there is no need to come before Christ. Only those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life will be judged by their works – Rev 20:12-13.The scripture specifically states that the unsaved will not stand in the judgement Ps 1:5, no belief can override scripture.

      You reference to Matt 24:30-31 should be taken in context with the prior scriptures to get the time line of the events. I thing the major issue that comes into play here is that the tribulation of Matt 24 is also considered the wrath of God and that leads to 1 Thess 4. 1Thess 5:9 makes a statement about His wrath and the following verse should be read carefully: Rev 2:10 “Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw [some] of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

      The point is that the pre-tribulation rapture requires Jesus to return twice and that is not in scripture, what is there: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

      • stu says:

        Ps 1:5
        To stand – (koom) means to rise, remain, succeed among other applications in context.

        This doesn’t mean that the wicked won’t stand before him (mechanically). This means they won’t be able to endure, stay on their feet, or be successful in his presence.

        Ephesians 6:13
        ιστημι
        his’-tay-mee
        holds the same concept of standing. Keep occupying, remain on your feet, be established

        There is no one else worthy enough to pass the eternal sentence on to these people besides the lamb. He took their punishment and if they don’t want to recognize him or accept it, he will pass their punishment on to them. Besides it is called the lambs book, he opens it and he operates his judgment from that book.

        The “standing” is where all will come before him but the goats and those not written in the book cannot stay. They are in torment just being there because their life is before them and they don’t look like the sheep.

        Matt 5:8
        To see-οπτανομαι
        op-tan’-om-ahee,

        Use used in a very specific act of prolonged gazing, eyes wide open with the mindset of something being remarkable.

        Again, very different from the mechanical seeing, it is done by persons that get to remain before him. To witness the goats leaving the room and for me to be standing there, I think I would be gazing with wide eyes too.

        These scriptures do no support the wicked not standing before Jesus in judgment when placed into context.

        I would be interested in the scriptures that say dying for Christ exempts you from standing before the books and judgment.

        Revelation fills in blanks just like Daniel does for revelation.

        Daniel 12 account leaves out the whole return, trumpets, bowls and millennium. It doesn’t establish a detailed chronology like revelation.

        I understand you are arguing for one judgment. But the implications of even the martyr to be raised to their new bodies require that they put on incoruptible bodies. If the only judgment is after millennium, then how did they inherit ?

        “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
        ‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭15:50-52‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
        http://bible.com/114/1co.15.50-52.nkjv

        Scripture clearly says we will all be changed at the same event, At the trump, second coming.

        Daniel 7

        ““I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire; A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.”
        ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
        http://bible.com/114/dan.7.9-10.nkjv

        Sound like the account for great white throne right ? The beast that bring torment to Israel is getting judged by the father, on thrones with myriads of Angels surrounding him. Actually, this lines up with the millennium kingdom. Then the son walks up and inherits his kingdom and his own throne.

        ““I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him. Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.”
        ‭‭Daniel‬ ‭7:13-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
        http://bible.com/114/dan.7.13-14.nkjv

        At this time the kingdom is given to the saints, Matt 19:28 says that the apostles will sit on thrones and judge Israel. It even talks of the regeneration being at this time.

        -We are all (martyrs and believers) changed at the same event(trump, second coming )
        – corruption is exchanged for incoruptible.
        – Jesus lefts his fathers throne to sit on his throne of glory (matt 25:31)
        – the saints receive the kingdom prepared for them (not the time when heaven and earth flee from his presence. )
        -1000 years of righteousness ruling the planet fulfilled and satan released
        – God consuming heaven, the armies and the earth with fire (rev 20:9, 2 Peter 3:12.
        – the first resurrecting people immune from death because they have entered their judgments already and inherited.
        – the dead raised and judgment passed on them ( and possibly believers in the millennium that never saw death or died believing. Death and hades were still active In The millennium. )
        – then comes the new time and a new thing is birthed and our bible as we know it is fulfilled and we enter into a new epoch.

  9. Roger says:

    You are correct in your statement about Ps 1:5 – “they will not stand” in the judgement or even be present.

    Try reading the Bible for what it says Heb 12:14 Pursue peace with all [people,] and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

    No unjust person will see the Lord – plain and simple.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      There are no just people only forgiven and unforgiven sinners: “as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.” Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” (Romans 3:10–20)

      The people who believe they are righteous are in the most danger.

  10. Stu says:

    ““When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.

    “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

    And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.””
    ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-32, 41, 46‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

    Looks like the unjust were standing before the son of man and went right to the lake.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      I agree but the real debate centers upon the question concerning the “sheep and goat” vs “Great White Throne” – are they distinct or different events? If they are distinct the sheep and goat is probably limited to folks alive during the tribulation and does not do the work you are using it for.

      • Stu says:

        I agree Chris, this can’t be used for great white throne judgment, but it does address where roger is hung up on no unjust will ever see God nor stand in judgment. The unjust people wil stand before Christ and go directly to the fire. This happening in the same “room” with the sheep who were just approved and now “stand” and remain. Sorry to get off topic. But it seems fundamental to establish that Christ is personally involved in judging all creation. He took the sins of everyone. This is what gives him the justification to give out forgiveness and to “pass on” our penalty and send us to the lake.
        To the thread:
        Sheep and goats judgment addresses the nations still active on the earth at his coming ( no resurrection mentioned). But the scripture says there are still people to be thrown into the lake who haven’t had judgment. I have a feeling God doesn’t pull people out of the lake for a second judgment. This leaves one possibility, that those alive at his coming and that go to the lake are a specific judgment for live people. The white throne judges specifically the dead.

        • Roger says:

          Stu, The white throne judges only those written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, every one else is cast into the lake of fire: Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is [the Book] of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

          The unsaved are not written in the Book. Plain and simple.

          • Stu says:

            Specifically at the white throne, dead people were raise and cast into the lake after books were opened (the one God wrote before you went to the womb and the ones detailing your life. In the specific and detailed order of the passage, after they were judges in those things, the book of life is opened to dictate the sum of your books and the position of your existence. This specifically talks about the dead from the sea, death, and hades being raised, and all the dead being judged according to their works as the first order of business. After that death and hell were thrown in the fire, ( giving accurate description of the content that used to be in them ) and once the book of life made the dictation, in the lake they go. Not one piece of positive out come is prescribed here. It is error to say that God will toss you on the fire with out dealing with the entirety of your life’s work before making the judgment. I don’t see any believe or rejoicing in this price of revelation. I can see your stuck roger. And I’m not coming to your side. Blessing to you. Keep moving forward with Jesus.

  11. Roger says:

    Without scripture, there is no meaning.

    • Stu says:

      What a strange place for that comment. Your statement is true but has no context with our discussion. Scripture is all we have talked about. I think all of the productivity of our conversation is over. Take care

  12. Roger says:

    My statement has a lot of context. What I am seeing is an attempt at validating the first resurrection as the saved and the second is the unsaved. The other part of this would be the secret coming of Jesus for the church.

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