Comments on: The Irony of Glen Beck, a Mormon, Speaking for Israel http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/ Defending the Faith, Evangelizing the Eschaton Sun, 23 Apr 2017 18:13:56 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=4.7.5 By: Cris Putnam http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1047 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 14:08:53 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1047 This is a good link on Dispensationalism I tend to lean toward what they call Progressive Dispensationalism.

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By: Christian Gains http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1046 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 06:06:07 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1046 Chris, as I spend more time here, — and I will — you’ll see that you and I are VERY CLOSE in our convictions. I’m just not as erudite in expressing them. I do wonder tho, what exactly, (details), is “DISPENSATIONalism” [sp?].

My Grandfather was a Episcopalian, and, apparently, believed that we humans have passed through several “DISPENSATIONS”, though I was FAR too young to query him, or understand his thinking. But! I KNOW FOR CERTAIN that ANYone as quick with the Word as you, is basically trustworthy. I might not always agree with you, but I’ll sure ask you when I have questions about language, or Doctrine. As far as the Glenn Beck operation — I’d take Gamaliel’s advice….

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By: christine gavin http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1045 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 03:39:57 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1045 Yes Glenn Beck must be watched, and considered the false prophet. He also tells us to stockpile gold when the bible assures that our gold will not save us.

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By: Cris Putnam http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1044 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:45:47 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1044 CG – Thanks for the kind words. I agree no one gets a pass without accepting the Gospel. Even most dispensationalists do not believe that they get a free pass on that. Glad we found some common ground.

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By: Cris Putnam http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1043 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:42:53 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1043 Keith – of course you’re right, I was speaking very figuratively, just in the sense that we all share the blame.

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By: Christian Gains http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1042 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 02:11:48 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1042 Chris, you’ve just won my wholehearted respect, and proven your creds as a fine Intellectual, who hasn’t bought into the arrogance that so often collects like stink on such. Of course, the fact that you study under Mike Heiser MIGHT have something to do with that. He’s DEFINITELY a finely tune, but truly humble Scholar. And, apparently you are too. THANKS!

Now, to respond:

As with the your first response, in your second response, you’ve proven to me that you “get it”, and are HIGHLY balanced in your view, (which I’m VERY pleased to see IS deeply rooted in the Word). I too have NO PROBLEM with the existence of the Nation of Israel, any more than I would with a Palestinian Nation. And, I’m THRILLED to hear your clarification on the “ALL HAVE SINNED, and, come short of the Glory of God” principal, because, THAT is my point. The Jews don’t have some “special dispensation” that they don’t get the judgement of their sins, but get a “Home free” card! (I believe that Zec. 12:10, & 13:9B clearly indicate that Jesus’ declaration that “Ye shall not see me henseforth, till ye shall say, “Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD”, will be fulfilled BEFORE his feet touch the “Mount of Olives”).

And also glad to hear your clarity on the Zec.13:8 and the Ezk.36;22, BOTH of which I totally agree are appropriate and sound theology. THANKS!

And, I want to assure you that I DO believe that there MUST be a “remnant” saved, (144,000? — just my idea, but, with the present population of Israel, the half of the city, and 2/3rds of the Nation, do the math, it might get as little as that),.

Simply because, #1] It’s God’s pattern, from Adam & Eve, {Seth}, through Noah & his family, through both the Babylonian, and Roman diaspora, to the Nazi genocide. AND ALSO, because #2] He SAID He would, (Zec. 13:9 through 14:2).

And, yes, I don’t agree with MANY Gov. policies either. Though SOME were truly potential to assist the needy and those “down on their luck”, nevertheless, the Gov.’s involvement in child birthing, Schooling, and massive entitlement programs, (FAR and BEYOND the actual need), is wrong, and those potential programs were ruined by corruption, graft, and politicizing them,(“all things continue the same from the beginning” — a norm for politicians)! Helel is IN DEED the MASTER Politician! Ha!

Thank you for passing Dr. Randall’s Article on to me. I’ll DEFINITELY read it, and if I have any other questions, I’ll ask. But honestly, I doubt now, that I will. Yours in Christ! CG

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By: Keith R. http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1040 Tue, 30 Aug 2011 00:46:42 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1040 Chris,

Based on your first first-post response to Christian Gains, where you addressed his statement, “The REAL QUESTION evolves around the ANSWER to this: “WHO killed Christ”?” I would rephrase your last-post response (just above my post, dated 08/29/2011 at 5:58 pm), “We all killed Jesus” to something along the lines of because of each and everyone of us, Jesus allowed Himself to be killed, which keeps logically consistent with your original rebuttal. After all, neither you, Christian Gains or I killed Jesus!

(Oh, and definitely a killer video my MacArthur. He’s one of the last of the Mohicans, for sure.

Thanks,

Keith R.

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By: Cris Putnam http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1039 Mon, 29 Aug 2011 21:58:02 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1039 But don’t you see that your question about who killed Jesus is misplaced? We all killed Jesus. Our sin – human sin – made it necessary. The Jews are no different than any other unbeliever in that regard. They’re not anymore evil than secular Americans or Chinese or whatever. However, they are different in that God used them to reveal himself in history and in the process of doing so he laid out some prophecies that he will fulfill. It was never about them being any better than anyone else,

“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.(Eze 36:22)

God will do if for his name’s sake. He keeps his promises.

I support their right to exist as a nation. That doesn’t mean I support their politics. I don’t necessarily support American politics either. I am a monarchist, i.e. things will not be right until we have the King of Kings in Jerusalem. I don’t think anyone is arguing that the Jews are unique in any other sense than God has prophesied that he is going to preserve a remnant of them and God keeps his word. “I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel?(Ro 11:1–2) It’s not going to be a cake walk for them that God chose them as an example. They will bear the brunt of the tribulation and pay a heavy toll, “In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive.”(Zec 13:8)

Here’s an article by Dr Randall Price that is helpful. A Rationale for the Future of Israel

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By: Christian Gains http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1038 Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:33:59 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1038 Oh! One more QUICK point! I TOTALLY AGREE with your summation of the Mormon & Jehovah Witnesses doctrinal errors. I neither agree with their teachings, nor do I spend anymore time studying them, I now simply do my best to expose them. Just wanted to make that clear. Thanks again!

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By: Christian Gains http://www.logosapologia.org/the-irony-of-glen-beck-a-mormon-speaking-for-isarel/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 Mon, 29 Aug 2011 20:30:54 +0000 http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=2589#comment-1037 Thanks Chris! You’ve done 2 things at once, which encourages me, (you’ve PROVEN by doing, what your CORE belief system is; and, you’ve placed my Salvation above your acceptability. I THOROUGHLY appreciate you’re candor. Yes…of COURSE Jesus gave Himself, and of COURSE we can ONLY, by faith, receive HIS FREELY OFFERED GIFT of forgiveness, and Salvation from our sinful Nature, for eternity! And OBVIOUSLY you’re saved. I apologize for making a wrong assumption. I ASS-U-MEd that, (since this is an apologists site), that more than likely the vast majority of your visitors would, at LEAST know Christ. Yes, I realize now how ignorant that must sound, but, I’m not really accustomed to visiting this type of site. Sorry, my mistake.

As to my relationship with Jesus, I received HIM as my Savior at age 10, then, at age 25, gave my life to HIM, and HE gladly began to work with me, to bring me closer, and closer, until I am TOTALLY dependent upon Him, & the spirit, and his Word — for life, reasoning and goals.

Now that clarified, I want to return to that original question that you answered. I do not find it surprising that you’d take that question, in the sense that you did, as obviously, either: you missed my central point: “Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do” — BTW, I do not rule out that this prayer is very possibly all inclusive, (meaning for ALL of mankind’s deadly sins), [though I’ve rarely heard THIS specific PRAYER credited as that]); but the generally accepted interpretation that I’ve heard, is that He is exonerating, begging the Father’s mercy on their ignorance, for His prosecutors, those who’ve crucified Him. But, NOT for those who KNEW what they were doing – As clearly depicted in Jn.11:47 – 53. (Now, if THAT doesn’t describe culpability, nothing does…Well, actually, maybe Matt.12:14 MIGHT be equally incriminating).

But, for the sake of those who may not understand, I’m pointing out that Helel ben Shakar (Yes Chris, I too have studied under Dr. Heiser — tho not NEARLY as fully as yourself), was the instigator, BUT! The “tools” that he was readily able to utilize for his “slaughtering of the Passover Lamb” “which taketh away the sins of the World”, [Jn.1:29], are therein, (Jn.11:53), described.

Now, there are (at least), two significant converging realities here, (at the point of the crucifixion):
#1] The “cornerstone” is being refused, [Matt. 21: 33 – 44, and,

#2] The prophecies concerning this event, [Zec. 11:10 – 13; 12:10; & 13:6; to mention a significant few], are being fulfilled.

Now, the reason I mentioned those Zechariah verses, is because of the close correlation between Zechariah & Matthew 27 & 21.

Note that in Matt. Chap. 21:33- 44, Jesus is referring back to the Zec. imagery of Chapters 2 through 14; beginning with their return from the scattering into Babylon, and captivity, all the way through to Yeshuah’s return.

But, even more significantly, He is also noting the ‘corner stone’:

“…for, behold, I will bring forth My the servant the BRANCH. For, behold the stone that I have laid before Joshuah, upon one stone shall be seven eyes..then he answered and spake unto me, saying, this is the word of the Lord unto Zerubabel, saying, “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, sayeth the Lord”[#3068 – YeHOVAH – self-existant, or, eternal]…”The hands of zerubbabel have LAID THE FOUNDATION of this house; his hands shall also finish it..for they shall rejoice and shall see the plummet in the hand of zerubbabel, with those seven, they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro, through the whole earth…The word of the Lord came unto me, saying..And, speak unto him saying, “Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts”, saying, “Behold the man whose name is the BRANCH; and he shall grow out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord, and he shall bare the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both…And, they that are a far off shall come and build the temple of the Lord, and ye shall know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto you. And, this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God”.

And, then, we come to:

“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and ridding upon an ass, and, upon a colt, the foul of an ass…

But ALAS…This comes:

“…Thus sayeth the Lord my God; feed the flock of slaughter, whose possessors slay them and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say blessed be the Lord, for I am rich: and their shepherds pity them not. For, I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver every man into his neighbor’s hands, and into the hand of his king, and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. And I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands, and I fed the flock…And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it assunder, that I might break my Covenant which I made with all the people…And I said unto them, if ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbare. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said utto me, “Cast it unto the potter, a goodly price that I was at them”. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord…”

Here we have the full circle. From their return, through building the Temple, through the “feeding of the ‘flock’ of slaughter’, to the their final rejection of their “King”, & therefore, His breaking of His covenant with them!

And now I come back to my question: “WHO killed their King”? And, “How does one enter His “KINGDOM”?

Please refrain from ASS-U-MEing that I’m asking how one get’s saved. I’m asking: Is entry into God’s/Jesus’ Kingdom dependent upon ANY thing but “receiving, by faith, His promise of Salvation, through belief that He IS Ha Meshiach, the “Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the World”?

Is it by WHO you KNOW…or…ARE…or…WHOSE bloodline you’re of? Is it by WHERE you live?

NO! Of COURSE not! THOSE distinctions never really existed anyway, (though they were {and STILL are by some}, BELIEVED to…but no: “And he BELIEVED IN the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness.” [Gen. 15:6].

So, here we have the CORE principal, and then, (above), we have you’re VERY FINE AND THOROUGH detailing of the rest of the principals.

But, Chris! There MUST be something missing…because, you’ve thoroughly detailed that ONLY THROUGH FAITH, and BY GRACE can one be saved and enter the Kingdom!

But! What about those who not only REJECT Christ Jesus as their Ha Meshiach, but persecute, and even kill, those who receive Him as theirs!?!

What about those who’ve established a National policy that “Proselytizing”, (witnessing the TRUTH of just who ACTUALLY IS the Ha Meshiach), in their Country, is against the Law of their Nation, AND, as well, will be prosecuted?

Now, while “love your enemies, bless them that curse thee, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”, [Matt. 5: 43 – 44], MOST ASSUREDLY IS our basis of relationship principal, with ANYone, where is the inference, or indication, or proof that, they are saved by that principal? THAT, of course, is the HOPE, but NOT the guaranteed result. AND, until “those who despitefully use you” CHOOSE, of their own free will, to “Receive & believe upon Jesus Christ”, they will REMAIN just as unregenerate as before…no matter HOW MUCH you love them. That’s no excuse NOT to, it’s just differentiating between OUR responsibility and theirs.

And, lastly, (and this is CENTRAL to my reasoning for writing this comment): WHY DO, WE AS THE BODY OF BELIEVERS, continue to encourage them to remain unregenerated, lost, and dead in their sins, RATHER than truthfully preaching the Gospel to them, and refusing to support their degenerate actions and motives?

Since that prayer: “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”, ALL of mankind has been of ONLY two bloodlines: that of death, [Gen.3:15 B] and that of LIFE [Gen.3:15 A]!

Where did the idea come from, that somehow, the Jewish people are “special”? “Unique”. Not necessarily needing to be “pushed” by the Gospel, but, NEEDING to be supported, no matter how irrational, harsh, unloving, murderous, and anti-Christ they are? THIS DOCTRINE of “deny the evil of their actions, and cover it with the mantle of “They’re God’s Chosen” is as evil & vile, (in my understanding of the principals of Scripture), as was the Scribes & Pharisees motive, in Jn.8: 1 – 11.

Which, BTW, demonstrates my deepest conviction concerning “judgment”…it’s NOT the deed, it’s the MOTIVE [heart] that Jesus {and the Father – I Sam.16: 7}, judges:

While she WAS “caught in the very act” — thus guilty! Nonetheless, Jesus ignored, [a HIGHLY INSULTING & DISRESPECTFUL action, in that day, as a response to the LEADERS of Ysar’el’s questioning], the questions, 3 times! Pretty caustic rebuke, at the LEAST. And THEN, quoted them the LAW in response, which led to the woman’s utter lack of condemnation! And, all HE says to her is: “Go, and sin no more!?! OBVIOUSLY He wasn’t so worried about her sin, as He was about THEIRS! She, very likely, didn’t know of Him…but, (demonstrated by their horrid attempt to trap Him in His words), they DID know of Him.

But, I digress.

Where is the Christianity in our National policy of such UTTER support for Israel, at this time in History? (And please do not use “The Holocaust”. Otherwise, we’ll have to FULLY support Russia, China, Ruwanda, South Africa…and EVERY other Nation who’ve suffered “genocide” at the hands of their Government).

I KNOW, and am CERTAIN that it MOST ASSUREDLY occurred, and was DEMONIC, [and still is, in ANY case], nonetheless, to use that, is to blatantly prove us hypocritical beyond belief, for Mao murdered Millions beyond Hitler’s numbers. And Stalin too! Yet, we don’t support either of those Country’s. And, to use the weak excuse that “They’re the ONLY Democratic Country in the Middle East, is like wise hypocritical! They’re Socialists for crying out loud! ALL Zionists are, and proud of it! Since Lenin!

So…where are the SCRIPTURAL admonitions upon which such a doctrine is based?

BTW Chris, thank you very much for this exchange. I’m HONESTLY not afraid to be wrong, I just don’t see where it’s SCRIPTURAL or Godly correct. And, if I am wrong, I look forward to your explanation. You’re MUCH more knowledgeable in these matters than I, and that’s why I’m going to all of this trouble to get your insight.

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