The Real Angel Wars – Exposing An Ancient Heresy

THE REAL ANGEL WARS

According to Scripture, the origin of sin is found in free will. God gave us the power of choice, which in itself is a good thing. Tragically, human beings misuse their God-given freedom. CS Lewis wrote, “If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having.”

Actually, Ken is somewhat correct in that evil originated in heaven before it did on earth. Evil was born in the pride of an archangel in the presence of God. This is a tremendous mystery, but it is, nonetheless, the essence of Christian teaching on the source of evil.  Isaiah 14:12 records the fall of Lucifer, which most conservative scholars agree is Satan.

How you are fallen from heaven,

O Day Star, son of Dawn!

How you are cut down to the ground,

you who laid the nations low!

While most contemporary critical scholars believe that this passage, in context, refers to “the king of Babylon” (v. 4), biblical prophecy has a way of leaving its immediate context for a heavenly one. That is certainly the case here. Consequently, the fall of man is a repeat of the choices of  Satan, who rebelled against God by a similar but primeval arrogance and disobedience. Paul interprets for us, “[An overseer] must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil” (1 Tim. 3:6). According to Revelation, other angels followed suit. A third of them rebelled with Lucifer and became his minions:

Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon.

And the dragon and his angels fought back,  but he was defeated,

and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent,

who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth,

and his angels were thrown down with him.

(Revelation 12:7–9)

Obviously sin was in the universe before it was in the world; So Ken is right that there was sin in heaven before there was sin on earth. But the term “original sin” is applied to humanity. According to Genesis 1–2, Adam and Eve were created with complete innocence. They had no evil in their natures or their environment. They “were not ashamed” (Gen. 2:2 ), and they were ignorant “good and evil” (Gen. 3:5). Furthermore, the very temptation to “be like God, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:5) implies they did not know evil before they fell. I hope you can see now how Ken’s theory is opposed to the very foundations of biblical theology.

Adam was free in that his actions were self-determined; God specifically said, “You are free” (Gen. 2:16).  It is significant that Adam and Eve were not enticed to lie, cheat, steal, or kill. Because they were innocent as I have shown, their moral nature was uncorrupted; thus, they were simply not vulnerable to these kinds of temptations. The command not to eat the forbidden fruit was not a command to stay away from what was intrinsically evil. They weren’t tempted by overt evil. What they were vulnerable to was a test. Would they obey God simply because He said it? Satan asked, “Hath God said?” (Gen. 3:1). No evil from within or from without drew them to original sin, only their freedom. In his book The Problem of Pain CS Lewis wrote, “The lost enjoy forever the horrible freedom they have demanded.”

A NEW SPIN ON AN ANCIENT HERESY



Documentation:

Here’s a link to see the Anathemas Against Origen.

Here’s the teaching of Mormon founder Joseph Smith, which is again remarkably similar to Ken’s

“[T]he soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation…. We say that God himself is a self-existent being…. Man does exist upon the same principles…. [The Bible] does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says ‘God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.’ The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself…. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it had a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had not beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven.” ~ Joseph Smith, April 7, 1844

full text of Joseph Smith’s discourse on pre-existence


References:

Norman L. Geisler, Systematic Theology, Volume Three: Sin, Salvation (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House Publishers, 2004), 82-90.

Brigham Young University. http://byustudies.byu.edu/showTitle.aspx?title=5321 (accessed 7/02/2010).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence (accessed 7/02/2010).

Blogging With Kenny

Ken Klein sent me a reply today asking me to apologize for my video commentary to his heretical teaching on original sin. The issue is that Ken denies the orthodox biblical doctrine of original sin, as the clips in the video evidence. He opposes the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul and I called him on it. Now he is threatening to sick his attorney’s on me.  Ken’s posts are indented in block quotes, my responses are marked Logos:

—————————–

****Due the length of Ken’s post and the fact that he basically defends his use of elohim for a plurality of angelic beings, something I never disputed, it is linked here.  ****

I am impressed to say for the sake of a laying a foundation:  Jesus is my Lord and Savior.  Jesus Christ is the common denominator that gives union to all believers even through their are differences of view points.  Yes, I believe in the Trinity and I do embrace an insight on that subject.

It is unfortunate that you have not done due diligence on who I am before trying to assassinate my character.  I would ask you to take down the video because it violates copyright laws, youtube policies, and includes slanderous accusations as to my motives and character.

I forgive you.
Ken

——————————-

Logos:

Sorry but this does not address the issue that sin entered the world through Adam, through one man not because we are fallen angels working off past rebellion. Paul makes that crystal clear.  You don’t have a biblical leg to stand on.

——————————

Ken:

Expected a more thoughtful response from someone who calls themselves Logos.

———————————

Logos:

I was brief, I am really busy at the seminary this week. I don’t see how any of this addresses the real issue. I made it clear in the video: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=206.  I am familiar with the Divine Council concept and have studied the work of Dr Michael Heiser, so the idea of little ‘g’ gods is nothing new. That was never my problem with your theology. It’s that you blatanly mocked the doctrine of original sin Ken.

THE BIBLICAL BASIS FOR THE ORIGINAL STATE OF INNOCENCE AND PERFECTION

According to Genesis 1–2, Adam and Eve were created with complete innocence. They had no evil in their natures or their environment. They “were not ashamed” (Gen. 2:25 nasb), and they did not yet know “good and evil” (3:5). In short, they were not only guiltless of any sin but also innocent of sin.

Further, the very temptation to “be like God, knowing good and evil” (Gen. 3:5) implies they did not know evil before they fell. Indeed, when they ate the forbidden fruit, “the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves” (3:7). According to the New Testament, by disobedience Adam and Eve became sinful (Rom. 5:12; 1 Tim. 2:14) and brought condemnation on themselves and their posterity: “The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” (Rom. 5:18).3 Before this, they were flawless.

Source: Geisler, Norman L.: Systematic Theology, Volume Three: Sin, Salvation. Minneapolis, MN : Bethany House Publishers, 2004, S. 17

In your video it wasn’t Adam’s sin. No, you said that wasn’t fair of God. Your words Ken, “It’s not fair!”  So you created this new revelation that it was our sin as as pre-incarnate angels? You are directly contradicting the Apostle Paul’s teaching.  That’s what I was responding to Ken, it was clear enough. You do not have the authority to “correct” Paul because you don’t think it’s fair, Ken.

As far as taking down the video look into : Fair use is a doctrine in United States copyright law that allows limited use of copyrighted material without requiring permission from the rights holders, such as for commentary, criticism, news reporting, research, teaching or scholarship.

——————————

Ken:

Consider the very scripture you brought up to support your interpretive doctrine of “Original Sin”.  If sin had to enter through Adam, then sin had to already be in existence, and by definition cannot be original.  For something that doesn’t exist cannot enter.

“By the way it was Eve that sinned according to Timothy.  So how did sin enter through Adam?”

We are not mocking the terrible nature of sin, but rather how the current and traditional Christian doctrine of sin is such a feeble representation of the magnitude of sin.  And the way it is represented, makes God out to look like a cruel rather than loving God.

His very nature is maligned by the poorly interpreted doctrine that you hold to.

Ken

P.S. I’m very aware of “fair usage laws” as a film producer and you aren’t in alignment with those laws.  If you still refuse to take it down then you will hear from my attorney.

————————————–

This was the  point where I decided to take it public. I will stand on the Fair Use provision. Ken is threatening me with his attorney. I am clearly using clips of his video for criticism and commentary which is the very reason the fair use provision was enacted. You tube isn’t too sympathetic about false DMCA’s being filed.  But what is really important is exposing Ken’s false teaching and bad theology.

_______________________

Ken: Consider the very scripture you brought up to support your interpretive doctrine of “Original Sin”.  If sin had to enter through Adam, then sin had to already be in existence, and by definition cannot be original.  For something that doesn’t exist cannot enter.

————————————

Logos:

This is really your argument? Sin is a metaphysical bogeyman that pre-existed Adam. Seriously? Sin means disobedience to God’s standard. It was original to humanity, Adam being the first human. Due to that, today we have an inherited sin nature but as Dr Geisler pointed out in the entry above there was a state of innocence in the original creation.  This is not an interpretative matter Ken. You teach that all of humanity sinned as pre-incarnate angels and we are here on earth working off our error by our own righteous choice. That is wrong on many levels. It qualifies as heresy and it is the duty of apologists to refute such error. The Bible explicitly says that one transgression led to the condemnation for all men.

“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. ” (Romans 5:18–19, ESV)

How do you explain this scripture Ken?

Ken: “By the way it was Eve that sinned according to Timothy.  So how did sin enter through Adam?”

According to Timothy? Sorry Ken but the Apostle Paul (the same guy that wrote “by one man’s disobedience”) wrote 1st Timothy.  I suppose you are referring to “For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. ” (1 Timothy 2:13–14, ESV) Paul’s point here is that Eve was deceived by the Serpent. Adam was not deceived, he knew better. Adam willfully chose to disobey. A man is the spiritual leader of his household by God’s design and when God inquired (Gen 3:9) he called Adam’s name. That’s the distinction Paul was making. This is really basic biblical theology Ken. You should know better.

Ken: We are not mocking the terrible nature of sin, but rather how the current and traditional Christian doctrine of sin is such a feeble representation of the magnitude of sin.  And the way it is represented, makes God out to look like a cruel rather than loving God.

His very nature is maligned by the poorly interpreted doctrine that you hold to.

It’s not just the “current and traditional” doctrine. It’s the apostolic teaching. It’s at the core of Biblical Christianity. It’s a non negotiable. Ken, I believe God’s revealed truth in holy scripture, “as one trespass led to condemnation for all men,” it is not an interpretive matter. You either believe the Bible or you do not. It’s a matter of submission to Biblical authority. You said that you don’t think it was fair that you inherited Adam’s sin. Ken you are the one maligning God’s character with, “It’s not fair”.  Actually, it’s really not fair that Jesus died for me. So I am glad it’s not fair. If it was really fair, I would go to hell.  No Ken, I didn’t choose to work off my pre-incarnate angelic transgressions. God was merciful. Ken you simply reject the clear teaching of scripture and have manufactured a new revelation to “correct” it. It’s nothing new. So did Joseph Smith, Alice Bailey, Mary Baker Eddy, David Koresh and Muhammad.  That’s what cults do Ken.


Livejasmin 18 Livejasmin Blonde Livejasmin Big Tits Livejasmin Mature Female Livejasmin Lesbians Livejasmin Transgendered Livejasmin Big size Livejasmin Asian Livejasmin Hot Flirt Livejasmin Anal Sex Livejasmin Couple Livejasmin Girl Livejasmin Shemale Livejasmin Latina Livejasmin Girl Livejasmin Hot Live Sex Show! Ebony Livejasmin Squirt Livejasmin Shaved Livejasmin Webcam sex Livejasmin.com www.Livejasmin.com Hot sex chat Livejasmin.com Sex webcam Livejasmin girl Livejasmin Small tits Livejasmin 2 Livejasmin Babe Livejasmin Live jasmin Live jasmin sex Live jasmin cam Live jasmin chat Jasmin cam Live jasmin webcam Live jasmin web cam Live jasmin Live sex Live jasmin Livejasmine chat Livejasmine.com Live jasmine Livejasmine.com www.Livejasmine.com Adult live cams Girls live cams Adult webcam live webcam Livejasmine