Exo-Vaticana and the Millennial Deception (part 1)


By Cris D. Putnam
Exo-VaticanaWhen Peter wrote “in the last days scoffers would come” (2 Pt 3:3), he would never have imagined the church would have entered what historians now call the “space age.” On one hand, the prodigious progress of science has afforded great luxury and benefit, but on the other hand, it promotes arrogance and imagined self-sufficiency. Theologian Merill Unger described the modern church as, “boastedly wise and scientific but utterly blind to God’s truth.”[1] Amongst the nominal church, the demonic realm has been demythologized and forgotten. Yet, the Bible predicts an unparalleled demonic deception prior to Christ’s return. Because we live in an increasingly post-Christian society that has elevated scientists as the ultimate arbiters of truth, it seems likely that such an unprecedented deception will be clothed in the credibility of science. The Copernican revolution’s toll on the Renaissance church’s authority has led to what is known as the Copernican principle, the idea that the earth is a mediocre planet amongst many and that humanity is an evolved primate of no special significance. These widely accepted anti-biblical presuppositions contribute to the wide spread belief in intelligent extraterrestrial life.

In recent years, the science of astrobiology, the study of alleged extraterrestrial life, has gained long sought respectability. Of course, the media has pumped out a myriad of science fiction films and documentaries promoting belief in benevolent ETs. More concerning, beginning with Eric Von Danniken’s Chariots of the Gods (1968), is the idea that the biblical authors mistook advanced aliens as divine beings, an idea which has gained cultural traction. Even the Vatican, who hosted an astrobiology conference in 2009, has issued controversial statements through its Jesuit astronomers concerning the baptism of extraterrestrials.[2] Monsignor Corrado Balducci, a high-ranking Vatican demonologist, has stated publically that modern extraterrestrial encounters “are not demonic, they are not due to psychological impairment, and they are not a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully.”[3] Accordingly, a broad foundation is in place for public acceptance of extraterrestrial beings. While neglected by most skeptical scientists, the UFO phenomenon, particularly the abduction and contactee reports, have led credible experts to conclude that deceptive entities are posing as space aliens. Since the time of Israel’s reformation, there has been a near exponential increase in such phenomena. This has led an increasing number of theologians to the hypothesis that these entities play a pivotal role in the end time deception predicted in scripture. To some this might seem like an assertion on the fringe of evangelicalism but that is not the case. A Senior Fellow at the Family Research Council, Timothy J Dailey PhD has written:

“One thing is apparent: We are witnessing a masterful satanic subterfuge that appears to involve the appearance of ‘angels’ and ‘aliens.’ Many are asking whether the coming of Antichrist can be far removed. From the Bible we learn that such an evil day surely lies ahead. The question for our consideration, then, is this: Are we in the throes of that final otherworldly deception now?”[4]

Dailey connects the end time rise in demonic activity to the UFO phenomenon and so-called extraterrestrial contactees and abduction victims. Due to the well documented increase in sightings, wide spread belief in aliens by the public and the scientific creation myth known as directed panspermia, his thesis is compelling. Belief in spiritually superior extraterrestrial beings uniquely provides a credible epistemological basis for the secular world to accept and offer worship to an individual who claims deity.
Coming soon…

See: http://www.exovaticana.com/



[1] Merrill F. Unger, Biblical Demonology: a Study of Spiritual Forces at Work Today (Wheaton, IL:Scripture Press Publications, 1952), 203.

[2] Alok Jha, “Pope’s astronomer says he would baptise an alien if it asked him” The Guardian, September 17, 2010 http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/17/pope-astronomer-baptise-aliens (accessed 12/07/2012).

[3] Richard Boylan “Vatican Official Declares Extraterrestrial Contact Is Real” UFO Digest http://www.ufodigest.com/balducci.html (accessed 12/09/2012).

[4] Timothy J. Dailey, The Millennial Deception: Angels, Aliens, and the Antichrist (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Chosen Books Pub Co, 1995), 11.

 

About Cris Putnam
Logos Apologia is the ministry of Cris D. Putnam. The mission of Logos Apologia is to show that logic, science, history and faith are complementary, not contradictory and to bring that life-changing truth to everybody who wants to know.

Comments

  1. Wow, this new project looks extremely interesting. Catholic dogma and more specifically Catholic mysticism is starting to make me feel very uneasy.

    Chris, are you familiar with how some of the more obscure Catholic prophecies are starting to converge with New Age beliefs? Things like dependency and adoration of supernatural beings. Catholics call them apparitions and n praying to the saints. New Agers call them higher, enlightened and channeling guardians.

    The one that intrigues me the most is a prophecy called the Three Days of Darkness that is held by both Catholic mystics and New Agers. Have you heard or studied these three days before?

    • Cris Putnam says:

      Thanks hopeful! That’s the first I’ve heard of the “3 days of darkness” but I have been noticing the convergence, especially in relation to the mystical evolutionary beliefs of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. Can you provide a good source concerning the 3 days prophecy?

      • I have a source that sums up the different pronouncements, but I do not think any of these are supported by the church, since they given by various seers and mystics who claim to talk to apparitions. Never the less, many people do believe them and new Agers give similar predictions, which is disturbing. I mention these not to try and elevate them or claim they are credible, but I believe these kinds of grass roots prophecies that are not supported by the bible can be utilized for deception. There is a biblical parallel as this was one of the plagues given to Egypt, but aside from that there is nothing to support it as a future event. If Satan were able to manufacture this kind of event, that would be something incredible to behold.

        http://whatisgarabandal.blogspot.com/2009/07/catholic-prophecy.html?m=1

        Personally regarding the validity of these seers talking to apparitions, I believe them to be demonic. No body seems to have the good sense to test the spirits these days.

        • John Boyle says:

          Why do you coalesce Catholic’s with “new agers”?? the catholic faith first and foremost discerns any apparition with a board of skeptics and none of it is an article of faith if found to be “worthy of belief”. Thats ALL the church will deem it….. Nothing more. Secondly why is ANY apparition or divine revelation of demonic origin to you evangelicals? Arent you limiting God? Arent you saying God can not and will not speak to humanity in any way or form? Its kind of non sensical….. First and foremost the church makes sure any apparition in no way says anything contrary to scripture….. That is something you evangelicals cant even do in your own church’s!!!! Think about it you have 100’s of thousands of you ALL speaking a different version of truth…… Boy if that isnt a tool of satan. Kind of like the crap these two authors put out. They mix truth with false hood… But hey like the bible says not everyone is destined to go to heaven. God bless!!

          Oh the 3 days of darkness are visions put forth by saints who had visions in ecstasy… It is not a church issue. But it goes with wormwood. I think saint hildergard speaks of it.

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            Yes of course. Let’s be 100% scriptural. Like Mary being a co-redemptrix for humanity. Catholics have exalted Mary to be equal with Jesus and then turn around and give her apparitions front and center to their dogma and pony show.

            How can the Catholic church possibly test the spirits against scripture when they have twisted scripture beyond recognition through all of the infallible pope’s interpretations?

          • John Boyle says:

            YAWWWWWWWWWWNNN The only ones who have elevated mary to Jesus is you evangelical types!!! mary points us to her son. and Who better then a mother to advocate to her son…. You really have such a limited understanding of what it is you speak. I noticed you do not respond only attack. Please tel me how many “infallible” interpertations of the Pope are there? Oh and remember we catholic put the bible together, copied it, protected it and died for it untill you changed it in 1500. Yeah Satan loves you guys!!

          • Cris Putnam says:

            John Boyle: “First and foremost the church makes sure any apparition in no way says anything contrary to scripture…..”

            You must be kidding me! The Apparition regularly contradicts scripture and Rome modifies its doctrine in obedience but Rome threw scripture under the bus centuries ago. As to the Marian Apparition perversions I have documented this with footnoted references here: http://www.logosapologia.org/?p=4191

          • michael dubois says:

            Chris…

            Just check into the prophecies of Sister Faustina…no need to go further.

            bondservant

          • John Boyle says:

            CHRIS PUTNAM
            THIS IS YOUR ‘RESEARCH” WHICH TELLS YOU BERNADETTE SAW A DEMON? ha.ha.ha.ha are you crazy? maybe as you thumb through your “twisted” scriptures via martin Luthaaa and realiza god has made great use of angels and the celestial court all through humanity….. Why would he stop in the 20th century? Oh yeah cause evangelical types need something to hang there hat on!!! (and you are a divinity student? Where fantasy land?? Come on!!! YOU ARE LIMITING GOD!!!) You post nothing of substance to make your claim other then a child who was religious and thought the vision could be demonic…SO WHAT???? Isnt that natural for anyone in the beginning in the natural course of demonic? (BUT OF COURSE THE MEAN AWFUL PRIEST FORCED THE CHILD INTO HER RIGHT MIND) Your investigation and conclusions are pathetic, sophmorish and not worthy of any serious student or researcher!!!

            SECOND; Of course marian Dogma evolved over time lest you forget mt 16; I will give you the keys to heaven and what you bond on earth will be bound in heaven and what you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven”

            LASTLY; (because the first few paragraphs are junk and not fit for printing I wont read any further) EXCEPT FOR‘CO REDEMTIX” IS NOT AND I SAY AGAIN IS NOT A MARIAN DOGMA!!!!!!! Yes it is discussed but so what? Why do you make a claim that is UNTRUE?????? TO BE A PROTESTOR??? You do NOT even understand it’s meaning do you? I posted below a detailed explanation (written by another) but as you will learn “co” does NOT mean equal…… MARY is blessed. She is “full of grace” andshe did not suffer the pains of child birth which is a cause of original sin, she is a perpetual virgin, etc..etc… SHE IS THE GREATEST OF HUMANS!!! Why? because ask yourself would we be having this conversation if she said NO???? To God??? You do not need mary? Funny God did…. jesus honor’s her mother…. But you choose not to. Even on the cross jesus spoke quite clearly telling humanity that mary was and is in fact “your mother”

            I asked 10 questions below. PLEASE CAN SOMEONE ANSWER THEM?

          • Cris Putnam says:

            Answering a few of John Boyle’s responses:

            THIS IS YOUR ‘RESEARCH” WHICH TELLS YOU BERNADETTE SAW A DEMON? ha.ha.ha.ha are you crazy? maybe as you thumb through your “twisted” scriptures via martin Luthaaa and realiza god has made great use of angels and the celestial court all through humanity….. Why would he stop in the 20th century? Oh yeah cause evangelical types need something to hang there hat on!!! (and you are a divinity student? Where fantasy land?? Come on!!! YOU ARE LIMITING GOD!!!) You post nothing of substance to make your claim other then a child who was religious and thought the vision could be demonic…SO WHAT???? Isnt that natural for anyone in the beginning in the natural course of demonic? (BUT OF COURSE THE MEAN AWFUL PRIEST FORCED THE CHILD INTO HER RIGHT MIND) Your investigation and conclusions are pathetic, sophmorish and not worthy of any serious student or researcher!!!

            I see you called me names but you didn’t refute the information. The apparition did not identify itself to her and Bernadette never claimed it to be Mary, calling what she saw simply “Aquerò” (“that thing”). Obviously, “That thing” does not sound like the sort of description you would expect of a “blessed Virgin” and why would she not identify herself?

            SECOND; Of course marian Dogma evolved over time lest you forget mt 16; I will give you the keys to heaven and what you bond on earth will be bound in heaven and what you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven”

            How does Matthew 16:9 support Marian dogma? How does this support that Mary was conceived without a sin nature or that Mary was bodily taken up into Heaven at the end of her life?

            LASTLY; (because the first few paragraphs are junk and not fit for printing I wont read any further) EXCEPT FOR‘CO REDEMTIX” IS NOT AND I SAY AGAIN IS NOT A MARIAN DOGMA!!!!!!!

            Because as you admitted above “Of course marian Dogma evolved over time” – the apparition has asked it to be made dogma and Rome listens to apparitions for its theology. Given recent supportive statements which I documented and footnoted and the fact that many 1000s of Catholics have petitioned Rome it will probably be next.

          • liam says:

            mr boyle you say the feenes are crazy. your shooting the mesenger. and you did not answer

            UNDER CATHOLIC CANNON LAW A POPE PRIESTS OR BISHOP WHO TEACHES HERESY OR APOSTACY IS AUTOMATICLY EXCOMMUNICATED FROM TH E CHURCH. if you go and even just look at th epictures pope john paul2 is sitting paraying with jews, hindus firewoshipers, pagans witches the lot.

            to say he was wrong does not cut it under cannon law this is apostacy and an affrount to the catholic martyrs of the church.

            so tell me is assisi interfaith (with people whos salvation the church says depends on their believing in jesus christ)meeting ok not to preach jesus crucified as paul says. these peopel the pagans christ denying jews-hindus,fireworshipers(devil worshipers more like) were denied th egospel for what. so they can promote a one world religion( we all pary to the same god).this is not catholic or apostolic. this is biblical at la sallete the virgin warned Rome would loose the faith and become th eseat of the anti-christ there would be a false church and a false religion masquerading as the catholic church.

            without shooting the messenger was assis apostacy or not.

          • liam says:

            you think sitting and prsying with satanists devil worshipers and anti-christs is ok.are you serious.
            at the very least i suggest you look up th esin of omision.
            and yes there is a problem with it. by doing so he pope john paul along with his bishops led theworld to belive it is ok to not only not be catholic but a non christian. anda devil worshipers . have you never heard of St James of spain the MUSLIM SLAYER. or the crusades which were sent to stop militant islam. by the pope ans the year european struggle with people who not only blaspheme the holy spirit but today are calling for the extermination of christians in the middle east and africa while the pope sits and prays with their leaders. would jesus sit with what he called the synagouge of satan.
            THE FACT YOU SAY ITS OK TO PRAY WITH THES EPEOPLE SHOWS ME YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE PRE-VATICAN catholic CHURCH.

          • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

            Who did Christ come for? Sinners. Who did he pray for? Sinners. Who did he pray with? Sinners.

            You say i know nothing of the pre vatican 2 church. I say you know nothing of Jesus Christ.

            You do the devil’s work…..

            Last comment because I don’t think you will ever get it……

          • liam says:

            saint francis of assis risked his life ot preach to the muslims

            any theologian in Francis’ time that knew anything about Muslims would know the Koran explicitly denies the doctrine of the Trinity; “ipso facto,” that makes them heretical

            There’s a fair history of his friars being martyred, besides the five in Morocco. The friars were aggressive missionaries; after Francis’ time, they made their way to China, to the court of the Mongols and to Armenia.
            these men risked their lives to preach christ ot the heathens not to sit downand pray with them.

            pope john paul your saint prayed with muslims not the gospel as francis did but his own prayer silently(whatever that was) and allowed them to pray to their own false gods acknowledging by omission that jesus christ is not th eoly way to the father. paul says in the gospel to the jews you have rejected salvation so now we go to th egentiles. pope john paul says lets all pray together because we all pray to the same god-so tell me if thats true why did the martyrs die for the faith.then

            Saint Francis spoke harsh words about those who do not accept Catholic truth. He did not speak in vague terms about the “seeds of truth found in all religions.” Nor did he announce his famous trip to preach to the Moslems as “an invitation to dialogue between the great monotheistic religions in the service of the human family” (5).

            No. He preached the need for conversion of the non-Catholics to the one true Church of Christ for salvation is francis a loony then.

            Regarding non-Christian religions, Sacred Scripture teaches that “all the gods of the nations are devils” (Ps. 45:5). Regarding heretical religions, Saint Paul tells us that false creeds are the “doctrines of devils” (1 Tim. 4:1). Thus, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition always forbade Catholics to engage in religious camaraderie with false religions (3).

            YOU SAY YOUR A FOLLOWER OF THE TRUE FAITH THEN BACK UP JOHN PAUL PRAYING WITH AND NOT PREACHING CHRIST. THEN SAYIN GHE IS HOLY. i dont think any previous V2 pope would agree or anyone in th eprevious 2000 years of church history. only Vatican 2 heretics like yourself

          • liam says:

            john jesus sat with sinners and told preached the gospel to them and told them to sin no more. art assis john paul the second preached nothing . he prayed with out and out voodo doctors who worship demons and were possessed.

            take another look this explains why our church has so many pedophile priests and non catholic teachings. when they said the smoke of satan had entered th echurch. it was a cover for saying the pope was a apostate heritical mason. tell me this why do they tell us that moslims budists-and anyone except people who wont follow an apostate pope going to heaven.
            like me.
            if i had been pope i would have told them they must convert to christianity at the very least. not allowed them to desecrate the catcan with prayers to satan himself.

          • liam says:

            Mr Boylethese are theological problems and i think your getting to heated. You can not critise Mr Putnam for holding to his position if you dont not acknowledge not only th eheresy of the vatican 2 counter church but the role the v2 popes have played in callin gfor a new world order. benidict a man who was directly behind hiding the pedophile scandal(if he had any morals he would have resigned as pope for the scandal it has caused) who last week called for a world government and a marxist central bank to run it. when we read the bible the mark of the beast is just to coem after that. also the pope says all religions pray to the same god. This i snot remotely Catholic or biblical neither. the budists-moslims-and all the false religions come from satan the devil. so why is the church taking so much time to pray with them
            at assisi it was an act of blasphemy and apostacy on a scale never seen before in the history of th echurch. the churchdrunk with the blood of the martyrs thinks thats ok. i do not .Excommunication is from jesus christ not eclesiastical authority. or only eclesisatical authority if it is within th ewill of jesus christ.The church has had antpopes before. and has so again. before you can defend the church you must explain the actions of apostate popes who openly are freinds with freemasons who wer ebefore hand thought to be in a satanic cult. if you go to the main catholic church in liverpool thhey have booklets on why a mason can not be a catholic.Blind faith in men must be overcome because although popes can be bad they are still popes if they keep to the doctrines of the faith . Apostacy though is another matter

          • Cris Putnam says:

            Liam I am in possession of a French book where – allegedly – Malachi Martin claims that John XXIII and Paul VI were both freemasons. I’m not sure how authentic it is. The name of the book is Eglise Eclipse in French or “The Church Eclipsed” have you ever heard of it?

          • katie says:

            John Boyle is probably a troll. For more information, see: http://trollpolice.com/ Trolls are twisted individuals who love to get onto websites and boards, and then bombard them with vitriolic, nonsensical, insulting, over-long posts. They copy and paste copious amounts of garbage from all over. They do it to get attention and to make themselves think they’re smarter than the rest of us. They’re there to cause division, confusion and arguments. There is no reasoning with them.

          • Cris Putnam says:

            I blocked John Boyle, all of his posts were plagiarized from Catholic websites with a few rude one liners added.

      • liam says:

        Mr Putnam i disagree. Acording to the rules of the Catholic church(cannon law) priests and bishops and popes who promote apostacy from the faith are automaticly excommunicated, The head of the church is Jesus Christ.i agree with what you are saying I am what one would call a pre-vatican 2 sect catholic. Athanasious said that even if only one person in the world held the faith then thats where the faith is. What the problem for modern catholics and protsetants is they think apostate evil satanic popes with the real catholic church(and yes i know you dont like that on eeither). There s nothing Catholic with sitting with voodo doctors which is what they did at assissi it has been forbiden by church fathers and the bible as anathema. It is an affrount to the catholic martyrs in old pagan days and those who were burned at the stake by protestants in england iand ireland for not renouncing their faith. The churchs worst enimies are now in control(masonic illuminists ) people in the church are waking up. there is a precedent for this at the time of the maccebian revolt when they had traitorious high priests for 50 60 years who allowed the abomination of desolation into the temple. we are in a similar period of world history, The cult of pope has been promoted instead of the worship of jesus christ. In the Church many popes have been sinful and wicked we know this its a reality but the dogma of the faith hasnt changed.untl the vatican2 sect took over. I belive the ordinations which were changed have made invalid priests-the New mass is invalid- They destryed devotional worship and everything that made it. As the virgin mary said at la sallete Rome would loose the faith return to its pagan roots and become te seat of anti-christ. Most catholics agree with the prophecy but fail to see with the the Vatican 2 popes starting with the documented mason good pope john this prophesy has come true, they think its going ot be in th efuter not knowing its aready happenined in frount of their eyes. Most of them are kept in the church thinking the pope is immune not knowing ratzinger(who took the name of an old anti-pope is one of the main instigators).The protestant churches . I read my bible daily as i have always done i read the history of the church and I have made up my own mind. I have also read the history of Mr Luther an dwas deeply unimpressed but thats beside the point. I am a catholic and i consider those in the church now as non catholic satanists (as jesus said jews who are not jews) the synagouge of satan with all the look of the catholic church. this has been prophesised for a long time. but like th eprophesy said most people will follow the anti-pope and the new pagan roman church

        • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

          I have avoided answering your questions because they fail on almost every front as in they lack solid foundation. But now I feel compelled; You asked me
          “UNDER CATHOLIC CANNON LAW A POPE PRIESTS OR BISHOP WHO TEACHES HERESY OR APOSTACY IS AUTOMATICLY EXCOMMUNICATED FROM TH E CHURCH”

          My question to you is how is “sitting” and praying with others, as the head of a church, an apostasy? How could speaking or maintaining dialogue with others somehow contrary to the faith? Must not one speak to another to evangelize? What would you have them do burn everyone at the stake?

          You are so off base and lack any real concept of evangelization or the church universal.

          lastly you quote lasalette quite a bit. fact is you are mislead. None of the things you quote are the official message of Our lady to melanie. Check it out. There is much m,is information about that apparition. in fact the only message that came out from lasalette was a call to grant God his day. THATS IT!!!! Melanie actually became full of herself and was persuaded and added many things that were never said and it became folk lore. yes in later years she either lied or was delusional. I have learned this DIRECTLY from the archivist of the lasalette shrine who has read the actual message and secret in the vatican archives.

          You sir are more of a schedavist and apostate then any cafeteria catholic. you do more to turn people away from the faith then bring them in and you sir will have some xsplaining to do upon your demise. I hope and pray you realize what a path you have made for yourself. the devil has tricked you sir and you are not even bright enough to see it. I hold you in less regard then a misguided evangelical as most of them were born into error and its all they know you on the other hand carry the water for the devil.

          god bless
          P.S. Dont count on me responding as I dont really want to get into it with you as you do not know what you speak…. But I will pray for you!!

        • Cris Putnam says:

          The cult of pope has been promoted instead of the worship of jesus christ.

          Liam, I am afraid this has been the case since the early middle ages. I find Catholic theology to be horrible perversion of the Gospel. I do believe there are Christians within Catholicism but it is only because they are not following Catholic theology. The practice of indulgences for sin is still going on, do you really think touching a rotten finger bone or a word from a man in a robe removes sin? Its so ridiculous and horrible. St. Peters was built with blood money from indulgences, the whole organization deeply corrupt to the core.

          • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

            CRIS PUTNAM IS A MORON AND FOOL AND THIS WILL BE MY LAST WORD ON SUCH A IDIOT

            *** Actually you don’t get the last word. Your responses here are all cut and pasted from other websites. All you have done is call people names and plagiarize the work of others. You’re just an abusive blow hard and you come across like you are drunk.

      • liam says:

        i disagree i have always thought of the pope as just a man its his office as bishop of catholics to uphold the christian faith if he does not he is out and next one in. I have always known as a catholic mary is a created being nothing compared to god almighty that christ is the only way the truth and the life. In being challenged to study the catholic faith it has made me belive it more as many of the protestant viewpoints are in my opinion are straw men arguments and their own interpretation of scripture which is why they have so many denominations and such. Protestants are inexticably linked to the catholic church because if they were not they would be also as obseesed with the greek orthodox and aglicans episopelians which they are not. Its route goes back to Luther who i i will admit have no respect for and when you looka t the istory of his life which is glorified by many protestants was worse than the popes he wished to protest about. My problem with his faith alone argument is that to take it seriously its a bit like islam. as i tell moslems i wont read the koran(i have read parts) because i read the history of mohameds life and found him to be wicked and evil monster, so anything he has written has to be avoided like the plauge. Luther though not in that catagory(were talking theology). to prove hs point took out parts of the bible and added in words(which the bible itself says is punished by hell Saint pauls anathema) he also called James epistle straw, How can any bible beliveing christian take any theology or doctrine from this man when he so clearly blasphemes the bible which is a work of the holy spirit to prove his man made doctrine. I agree there were abuses from the catholic church. But as jesus said in his own time salvation came from the jews , but with the leader- do as they say not what they do. th ebibl esays man is saved through faith. when you use th eword alone it gives power to the thought that nothing except belife is need to gain salvation any one of sense knows this is not true it requires works of mainly repentance through faith. as jesus said as you do to these you do to me and when i was in prison when did you visit me. these works they did not do were enough to sentence them even though they had faith. if by faith alone they were to gain heaven should they not have gone so. My point is it is a doctrine designed with one intent to draw division between the brethrin. all catholics know they must have faith to achieve salvation as its in the profesion of faith(we belive in etc).this division as you know is even among many protestant churches who are now arguing because one says we dont need ot prepare us or our families fo rend times we just need to have faith etc. its insane. and it all goes back to lutherins false doctrine which is a wre-writing of paul. Man is saved by faith-faith comes first. on a persons death bed he may repent through faith and go to heaven-yes. but if he lives and does not show the fruits of the spirit and outwardly these are through works. then he is damned. to hell if he dies in that unrepentant state. as we know by NDE experiences even th efaithful go to hell because of unrepentant sins even though they had faith. faith without works of th espirit which lead to works of the body as james says are worthless. i think catholics and protestants disagree less than they think. we know Man is saved through faith . Luthers insertion of the word alone is a sword and a blister to cause conflict. where there is no need. i will get back to you on th erelics iissue when i can do some research and have more time

        • Cris Putnam says:

          Liam,

          i have always thought of the pope as just a man its his office as bishop of catholics to uphold the christian faith if he does not he is out and next one in.

          You are disagreeing with Roman Catholicism, they say the Pope is the Vicar of Christ – His sole representative – literally Christ on earth with infallible teaching authority. If you don’t believe that you should not identify as a Catholic.

          . I have always known as a catholic mary is a created being nothing compared to god almighty that christ is the only way the truth and the life.

          Again, you are not in line with Catholic doctrine which claims she was a sinless perpetual virgin who ascended to heaven and now answers prayers. In fact the Rosary is a prayer to Mary. In scripture prayer is exclusively offered to God. The rosary is Mariolatry. Catholicism is irreconcilably corrupt.

          Luther’s life is a red herring in the discussion – he never claimed to be the Vicar of Christ or infallible like the popes do – in fact he admitted he was an unworthy sinner as do I. What Luther did was realize that justification is based on faith alone and he was 100% correct in that.

          For example, consider: “And the free gift is not like the result of that one man’s sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.(Ro 5:16) It’s not a free gift if you have to work for it or buy it from the pope. “For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”(Ro 3:20)

          Rome still sells forgiveness of sins – justification- through indulgences. See http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/nyregion/10indulgence.html?_r=2&em& St. Peters was built on the blood money from Johann Tetzel and his infamous “As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs.” Yes it’s still true as this recent article shows! In exchange for prayers, devotions or pilgrimages, donations or handling certain relics – Catholics can have their time in Purgatory, the punishment (because the cross is inadequate) before entering heaven, reduced or erased instantly. Purgatory is a place where you must work off your sins but indulgences can be purchased or earned which lessen ones time in purgatory. This horrible perversion strips bare Romes justification by works (and even by bribes) doctrine. If you dispute this please justify purgatory and the purchase of indulgences to lessen time in purgatory.

    • Godswill says:

      Dear Sir or Madame,

      Wanting to always and Forever … clear up that Catholics Do Not worship or adore Saints. That would be blasphemy. This also includes the great Mother of God, Mary Most Holy. Goodness. Mary walked, lived, breathed as you or I; she was not a figment of anyone’s imagination. She was created perfect, as Eve and Adam before the Fall. Is God incapable of creating anew His second Eve who housed Him, as the human Arc of the Covenant, Almighty God? The Lord cannot leave His ambient of Heaven, and therefore created His Heaven in her; in order for Him to be born “of woman,” she had to be a perfect Vessel in which To Be “housed” and formed. Only Divine Holiness could be drawn from Heaven to earth, finding His heaven in her, and found His dwelling within the one pure homeland of her womb, where He was safe from corruptible seed. Bernadette was not perfect. She, too, lived and breathed as a real person. Our Lady came to Bernadette miraculously, as has occurred many times in history to those living meritorious lives of Holiness, precisely to inform us of her Immaculate Conception. This is why they are called Saints. But, Catholics do Not worship or adore other people, only Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God. We Honor her, as Jesus Himself honors His Mother and created her to share in His Redemption.

      She is also your Mother, as Jesus gave her to the whole human race through the hands of his Beloved Disciple John. This was His final Will and Testament, our inheritance, to the whole human race. To John was the Blessed Mother entrusted. She is not in anyway to be construed with the New Ager’s Gaia, or their many depictions of out-of-reach, out of touch fantasies. She is the One who nurtured, protected Him, watched Him grow, made his cloths, and more than any other person who has ever lived or will live was the closest to Him. So, just as at the Wedding at Cana, Our Lady interceded on behalf of the couple being married, and through her intercession, Jesus Did perform His first miracle. She has great power given by God to intercede on behalf of her children to her Son Jesus Christ. This is why we pray … not to her, but asking her intercession on our behalf. That’s a big difference.

      It is like you asking your Mama to pray for you … for whatever it is you are praying. We ask those who have lived lives of Holiness, those closest friends of Our Lord, those who we know have lived lives of holiness to pray for and with us, for the Prayers of a righteous man (or woman) availeth much. There is no mystery to asking the best friends of Jesus to pray for us. Is it not logical to do so? Free of the body, they are more alive now in His eternal presence. The Blessed Mother loves all her children, even those who do not know her or refuse to want to. St. Alphonsus Ligouri wrote once, “Woe to those who offend the Mother of God.” Have you ever seen an Italian man if his mother has been insulted? Jesus would do the same. It is best to want to know your Heavenly Mother.

      • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

        YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNN……. My LORD!!! All you people do is attack, I respond but not ONE has answered my questions… ha,ha,ha PATHETIC!! Well let me skoool you again about scripture (Imagine being skooled by one of those pagan catholics?)

        ***SNIP******* this is not a place for you to cut an paste material from other websites, rather comments and discussion. You did not answer my question below. Was Mary alive in Luke ch.1? – Cris

        • hopeful_watcher says:

          You have a justification for everything and when people do that they are usually fooling themselves. You know what requires zero justification? Total worship of Jesus and submission to His holy spirit. His yoke is easy. His burden is light. Can anyone say the same about the Catholic church? That they don’t burden and weigh down their followers with doctrines, traditions and regulations created by man.

          Jesus even simplified it for us simple folk who don’t know Latin so that they too can come to Him. Love the Lord you God and love your neighbor. You do the first, then you abide by the first four of the ten commandments. You do the second, the you will follow the last six.

          You would probably consider me spiritually lazy. That’s ok. I would call it being more Christ like. I would rather be called lazy than the complete antithesis of what Jesus taught.

          Here is the part where you yaaawwn. I believe all of those “works” are making you tired. You DO need a nap.

          • liam says:

            AS regard to mejogorjie even the catholic herald is now saying the lives of the so called seerers is a proper scandal the priests have been unfaithful to the church(a sign of satan). the message is not remotely catholic or christian and has been condemned by the bishops of that country for 30 years. If someone converts or whatever it is god but satan doesnt mind a few thousand converts and millions of people who accept comprimise and th edoctrine of demons. IT IS NOT OUR LADY AS ONE TIME SHE ACTUALLY APPEARED AS SATAN. the visionary man is hugely fat married a beuaty queen lives in a 100,000 house and drives a sports car at the same time telling people to fat twice a week.

          • liam says:

            just re -read your response john paul 2 was one of the holiest men to walk the earth next to jesus christ. holy cow..thats an amazing statement. one i am sure people like padre pio would agree with . or the hundreds of people who actually stuck up for jesus when facing moslems and pagans and didnt sit down to eat with them. the bible says do not sit and eat with pagans but we see your holiest man jp2 was happy anough to do worse and yes it was cow dung she was a kali priestess i sugest you go and look again at that picture. and you will see voodo worshipers in the interfaith meeting. pope jp2 was also a freind to masonic groups (excomunication rescinded by jp2 for catholics in those satanic organisations) despite the fact they worship satan at the33rd degree level. ASSISI was an abomination and you tell me this man jp2 who says we should shed our blood for christ didnt preach christ to any of these pagans whos souls will go to hell. at the very least this is a sin of omission. we have all been caught up in worshiping jp2 and when you say he is th eholiest man on earth next to christ that is idolatry. Tell me when jp2 kissed th ekoran after all the popes in the church history dealing with islam says islam is of the devila satanic and in that book they blaspheme the holy spirit. pope jp2 was the greatest actor of his generation but he was not a holy man. he himself magnified himself above the scandals of the church with his cult of personality. you are worshiping the man(idolatry) and disrespecting his office. The church kows many popes priests and nuns have gone to hell and led sinful lives pope jp2 was the worst in all catagories because of him millions left the church and millions lost their faith.(thats statistically correct) those that stayed are mostly lukwarm and do not think islam a sin anymore as the v2 sect says we all go to heaven of were good people. This is apostacy and not remotely catholic. i suggest you look into this and your eyes will be opened as were mine.I am still a catholic but i do not go near the vatican 2 sect. when i questioned priests and a bishop they were as guilty or clueless of the faith as i had imagined

          • Cris Putnam says:

            BTW many Catholics called John Paul II an antipope due to his radical pluralism.

            See: http://www.truecatholic.us/heresiesjp2.htm & http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1779135.s

          • Cris Putnam says:

            liam – if you are not in with Vatican 2 you aren’t catholic… its official dogma and you are protesting V2

            get it? “protest”ing as in now you are a “protest”ant.

          • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

            First not “many” catholics call Blessed JP11 an “anti Pope” about the only ones are the lunatic fringe known as the Dimond brothers who have no affiliation or ecclesastical recognition with the church. If they do it’s through a V2 edict which they denounce anyway!!!

            Which brings us to V2. It was a “pastoral” and not eclesiastical confrence whereby nothing that came out of it is an article of faith. Please if you are to write, speak and denegrate the “one true faith” then please have your facts straight. How will you reconcile your blaspheme against jesus church when you stand before him? I wouldnt want to be you…. Buy some real strong sun block with your blood money.

          • Cris Putnam says:

            How will you reconcile your blaspheme against jesus church when you stand before him?

            The Bible tells me to expose darkness and I don’t think Roman Catholicism is His church. How will you explain praying to dead bodies and idols and indulgences? Praying to finger bones, skulls, ribs, decayed corpses – even praying to vials of John Paul II’s blood! This is nothing but sorcery and necromancy. Prayer is worship. So the RCC literally worships dead bodies and relics, its disgusting.

            “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness.”(Mt 23:27)

          • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

            CRIS PUTNAM,

            I ANSWERED ALL YOUR QUESTIONS AD NAUSEUM. NOW BELOW I HAVE STANDING 10 QUESTIONS THAT YOU NOR ANY ONE OF YOU CATHOLIC HATING EVANGELICALS WILL, OR CAN FOR THAT MATTER, ANSWER.

            ***SNIP*** cutting and pasting blocks of text from other people’s work is not discussion rather plagarism.

          • Cris Putnam says:

            John Boyle: I am not about to waste my time on 10 questions when you have not answered one yet with any integrity. A simple google search of your so called “replies” reveals you are just plagiarizing material from Catholic websites – simply cutting and pasting it verbatim. You didn’t even give it a moment of thought, you just highlighted cut and pasted. A robot can cut paste the thoughts of others, this suggests that you have not really thought through your beliefs rather parrot what you are told. Either respond yourself or give up.

            Our position is that prayer is worship so when Catholics pray to a vial of John Paul II’s blood or a rotten finger butchered from a corpse they are praying to idols. Can you show me one place in scripture where prayer is directed to anyone other than God?

        • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

          Here you go Cris…. Now will you answer my questions?

          ***SNIP**** PLAGIARISM IS NOT ANSWERING!

      • liam says:

        Mr godswill i am a catholic so when i said pope john paul 2 had cow dung put on his forehead the pictures are there. when you say he was holy i disagree. Many popes were wicked sinners and john paul 2 at assisi interfaith meetings with voodo doctors budists kali priestesses is an abomination and apostacy of the church. He is excomunicated. i do not respect him but his office. you respect him not the office. this is idfolatry. the law of the catholic church is clear if a pope bishop or priests becomes an apostate he is auto maticly xcommunicated. i suggest you play devils advocate and you will see the V2 sect the end time delusion as the nNew mass is not valid under cannon law and the only person jp2 excommunicated from his church was a bishop who was ordaining priests in the old rite(the new one is invalid)He as pope was directly responsible for covering up along with benidict the perverted priests who they should have handed over to the police. he should with benedict and any bishop who covered it up be in jail.
        TELL ME AT ASSISI JOHN PAUL 2 PUT A STATUE OF BUDAH AT THE ALTER.(ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION) HE PRAYED WITH VOODO DOCTORS WHO WE KNOW WORSHIP EVIL SPIRITS. as a catholic this cult of personality has taken over. If the Pope was catholic he would be hated world wide.as we are in a time of absolute apostacy and sexual perversion. john paul 2 was an actor in olden days actress was the same as prostitute yet here we have a holy pope scandalizing the church.
        EXPLIAN TO ME HOW A MAN WHO IS HEAD OF A CHURCH CAN PRAY WITH VOODO DOCTORS HAVE COW DUNG PUT ON HIS HEAD PRAY WITH ANTI-CHRIST MOSLEMS KISS THEIR HOLY BOOK WHICH FOR 1400 HUNDRED YEARS TH ECHURCH HAS SAID WAS ANTI-CHRIST. HOW CAN YOU CALL THIS MAN HOLY

    • liam says:

      agusto perez has had visions of 3 days of darkness and nasa talk about it being possible during a pole shift. steve quale talks about krakatoa being the entrance to hell when it explodes which will release the demons from the world(this sounds very like the catholic version of the three days of darkness prophecy when all the demons from hell are released to kill gods enimies on earth). Catholics do not pray to the saints, they petition them in the same way one would petition a person on earth to pray for them(they call them the church triumphant) . catholics believe god is the god of the living not of the dead. those in heaven can pray and the prayers like those for us by brethrin on earth have power. The modern vatican church was prophesised by the virgin mary at la salete she said ROME WOULD LOOSE THE FAITH AND BECOME THE SEAT OF ANTI-CHRIST THERE WOULD BE A FALSE CHURCH WHICH WOULD LOOK LIKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BUT WOULD NOT BE. this is the V2 sect and its anti-popes, as far as cannon law is concerned Seri was elected pope in 1958 and although he resigned it was under duress(which is not allowed) so he was pope the rest of his life but not allowed to enact his office(pope in red of the Fatima Prophecy). the present pope thinks Islam is a good religion and that everyone goes to heaven if they are a good person. they have lost the faith and support an anti christ religion in islam (before they said it was pure evil). the present church is not catholic or christian it is not a proper representative of christianity very much like the apostate protestant churches in america like chrislam and rick warren. Satan has infiltrated all of the big denominations . the ex head of the anglican church is a self admited satanist(druid).

      • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

        You denounce blessed John Paul 2 but quote Steve Quail????????????????????????

        ARE YOU FREEEEEEKIN NUTS???????????????

        My Lord with catholics like you who needs evangelicals?

  2. john B says:

    Hi Hopeful; A lot of these catholic prophecies including the three days of darkness could very well become a reality to further give credence to the deceptive Marian apparitions as being from God.
    Consider the ramifications and aftermath if such an event was to transpire.

    Something else that I have been aware of concerning these Marian prophecies, is that they (the messages) are very often overlaid with protestant terminologies. A lot of these apparitions are also savoured ecumenically (interfaith)
    I mention these things because I believe that Marian prophecies will somehow be used to further the appearing of the lawless one. 2Thes2:9

    Blessings

    john B

    • John, you bring up an excellent point about ramifications if certain so-called prophecies were to become a reality. We are told that the end of days deception will be accompanied by counterfit miracles and lieing wonders. We should take this at face value. It will be fake and it will look miraculous.

      So Satan could steer a whole lot of people to where is wants them if he can somehow manufacture one of these miracles or even more likely, he already has the ability to do so and the “demonic” apparitions come forth before hand and prophecy about them to give them credibility and merit.

      We live in strange days.

      • John Boyle says:

        Kind of like how the Protestant reformation is described in Timothy 4.3
        “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. ”
        Like how martin Luthaaaaaaa droped books and changed words of the bible in direct violation of scripture…
        The list is endless. mary is the arc of the new covenant, conceived without original sin and assumed into heaven both body and spirit is it NOT therefore wholly possible she is paving the way for her sons return? Why is every marain apparition demonic? ha ha ha thats NUTS!!! You cant see satan in your own religion but seek to tear down the “one true faith created by jesus himself” After all jesus didnt say “wait 1500 years after my death to start you ecclesiacal sect no no no he said “Peter you are the rock and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH!!!” and only the catholic church existed then and up untill your rebelious protesting martin Luthaaaaaaa sought to be a tool of satan and you its subjects…. amazing how ignorant you all can be!!

        • hopeful_watcher says:

          “mary is the arc of the new covenant, conceived without original sin and assumed into heaven both body and spirit”

          I am sorry, I don’t recall this scripture. Could you tell what chapter and verse you got this from?

          • John Boyle says:
          • hopeful_watcher says:

            Congratulations. You have successfully identified Mary as the mother Jesus.

            All your scripture speaks to how Mary’s experience as being parallel to the arc. So what? Last I checked, Moses and the Israelites were honoring its contents, not the arc itself. Mary deserves.a.place of honor, but the Catholic pope bestowed upon her gifts of the spirit that are not his to grant, but God alone.

            So now you have assembled all that scripture, but then ignore Jesus’s own words that speak of exactly what you are doing.

            Luke 11:27-28, “… a certain woman … said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”

            Matthew 12:46-50 (Mark 3:31-35) (Luke 8:19-21). “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without,desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without,desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

          • John Boyle says:

            THIS IS YOUR ‘RESEARCH” WHICH TELLS YOU BERNADETTE SAW A DEMON? ha.ha.ha.ha are you crazy? maybe as you thumb through your “twisted” scriptures via martin Luthaaa and realiza god has made great use of angels and the celestial court all through humanity….. Why would he stop in the 20th century? Oh yeah cause evangelical types need something to hang there hat on!!! (and you are a divinity student? Where fantasy land?? Comey on!!! YOU ARE LIMITING GOD!!!) You post nothing of substance to make your claim other then a child who was religious and thought the vision could be demonic…SO WHAT???? Isnt that natural for anyone in the beginning? (BUT OF COURSE THE MEAN AWFUL PRIEST FORCED THE CHILD INTO HER RIGHT MIND) Your investigation and conclusions are pathetic!!!

            sECOMND; Of course marian Dogma evolved over time lest you forget mt 16; I will give you the keys to heaven and what you bond on earth will be bound in heaven and what you lose on earth will be loosed in heaven”

            LASTLY; (because the first few paragraphs are junk and not fit for printing I wont read any further) ‘CO REDEMTIX” IS NOT AND I SAY AGAIN IS NOT A MARIAN DOGMA!!!!!!! Yes it is discussed but so what? Why do you make a claim that is UNTRUE?????? PROTESTOR???

          • John Boyle says:

            I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING AS PATHETIC AS WHAT YOU THINK!!!

            ***SNIP PLAGIARISM***

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            I think its pathetic that you believe I will take offense if you insult Martin Luthaaa. He is but a man. I am a disciple of Jesus who owes his allegiance to no denomination, but to the Lord above. Rage on brother.

          • john B says:

            Hopeful; According to The pope Mary also mediates Grace ((((utter blasphemy against the Holy Spirit)))

            Blessings

            john b

        • john B says:

          John Boyle: “You are Peter (Petros masculine gender = small stone, pebble in the Greek) and upon this Rock (Petras feminine gender = large rock, bed rock in the Greek) I will build my church Mat16:18

          The Petras upon which Jesus builds His church is the ‘divine revelation’ of Who Jesus is (The Christ) which was Peters answer given him from the Father. And so it is, that none can be part of that church of which Jesus alone is the builder, till such time that divine revelation be given from above.

          The Church is a spiritual house, wherein Apostle Peter said referring to himself as well as all others who are part of the building. “you also as living Stones are being built up” 1pet2:5 Peter never saw himself as the Rock!

          You err greatly to believe that The spiritual house of God is built upon Flesh and Bone. T’is Babylon that allures to the Flesh!

          Apostle Paul tells us that Christ is the “cornerstone of the building” Eph2:20

          Christ is the Rock of Peters confession upon which the Church is Founded with the prophets and apostles and Growing into a Holy Temple in the Lord Eph2:20,21

          The church is not about Rome or Luther or any Babylonian offspring… It is about a “Holy temple in the Lord” its Builder…..

          Blessings

          john B

          • John Boyle says:

            My Lord where do you get your information? ha ha ha Oh yeah the rewrite from Luthaaaa 1500 years after Christs death. Tell me, well before i ask yo some questions I suggest you read the early church fathers like ignatius the bishop of antioch around 90ad on his way to be martyred he wrote a letter and spoke of the catholic church and peter its head…. yeah i guess hes wrong too. read the early church fathers. i can disect the matthew 16 passage also to my favor but answer me these;questions;
            https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=479237652127328&set=a.326687934048968.85264.326400784077683&type=1&theater

          • liam says:

            you say that but it doesnt fit in the context of the gospel. the context shows that jesus is changing peters name for a reason. if he were to rename simon tonot rock but pebble. it makes a whole nonesense of the passage in general, You want us to belive Jesus re named peter pebble and then said but upon this rock(himself i will build my church). Our lord then did not have to rename peter if he himself was the rock. was this to shame peter. because it undoubtably would. there is no reason for jesus to change peters name. unless it was to rock. and then the whole thing makes sense. your argument contextually does not.sorry good try. The man who built his church on a rock was a wise man(christ).then he changes peters name to simon.pebble. that is really funny.

          • john B says:

            Liam ; It is obvious that you have not understood the Greek implication of the passage.. Jesus is not changing Peter’s Name at all.

          • john B says:

            The Text does not say You are Peter the rock and upon this rock I will build…

            It says you are ‘Petros’ and upon this ‘Petra’ I will build ……

            Mat16:18

          • john B says:

            Furthermore; all other Apostolic teaching found in the scriptures on the matter of the foundation of the church supports Jesus to be the foundational cornerstone Eph2:20 along with all the Apostolic body and the prophets. the scripture cannot be broken Jn10:35

            To say that Peter is the foundational Rock breaks the theme of Apostolic doctrine within the scriptures it contradicts and rejects the obvious truth.

          • john B says:

            You implication, that is to say the way you have been taught ultimately makes Peter to be the Rock of our salvation and indeed it is such that catholics believe that their is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic church whose head is the pope to which all must submit.

            As for me I affirm with The Apostles that Jesus is the Rock of salvation and it is to him that I submit as the Head of the church. Eph1:22 Col2:19.

    • liam says:

      you are right in a way because there are numerous false appiritions. the worst is at medgeorjie which rome used to attack and defend at the same time. to further its anti-christ agenda now that agenda is fulfilled its attacking that appirition(which is not remotely catholic and has led to a huge scandal). also bayside is also a false prophecy although denounced by the church it is 95% catholic in its message but it supports pope jp2.who was a paid actor.
      and lots of other false visions. like a plaugue. the present pope for any catholics who doubt he is pure evil last week called for a world government and a marxist central bank to run it. he also thinks Islam is a peacful religion and that jews who deny christ do not need to convert to christianity but its ok to think their messiah(anti-christ) is still to come.
      in a world of countless evil wars- satanists in the music business and big business very welcome at the vatican and invited to sing. one wonders how they get a way with it. catholics are blinded by the cult of popery not knowing thier own church says any pope who apostacises from the faith is automaticly excommunicated.

  3. john B says:

    John; Why do you mockingly laugh at what i say?….I receive my information from the Holy Spirit’s inspired writings of the Apostles as recorded in the New Testament…I am familiar with the writings of the early church fathers… I can tell you that Igantius of Antioch is post 90 Ad.. and that his martyrdom was during the reign of Trajan.. He was also the first to break with the NT Apostolic model of a collective eldership favouring the ‘single Bishop’ as the leading figure of the church without which services could not be held (Smyr8:2)

    Would you please give the index ref to your statement ( a letter and spoke of the catholic church and Peter its head)

    Blessings

    john b

    • John Boyle says:

      I have provided detail answers from Mary to Peter the rock and can and will continue. But in typical fashion you avoid answering anything I have posted. i gave you a link to “inspired” face book page which hosts about ten questions you cant answer so untill you do I remain a member of the “one true faith” of which you choose to mock repeatedly and without foundation “rock” nor compass….. I await.

      • John Boyle says:

        Ya know here you go my brother….. It is not of my liking that you be denied the truth and pray you find your way…

        ***SNIP PLAGIARISM***

      • hopeful_watcher says:

        Wow, your Facebook is now an inspired word of God. Perhaps this is the arc of which you seek since it contains God’s word. Shall we now create a tri-redemptrix? I can post comments to the Facebook page and I will receive blessed responses and forgiveness on high.

        Utter insanity.

        • John Boyle says:

          “utter insanity” is all you can say? You challenged me for proof and it was given and all you can do is mock and not retort? Is that the depth of you knowledge? Your education? ha ha ha pathetic!!! Sorry boys but youz being skooled…… BY A CATHOLIC!!!! (How unbiblical!!! ha ha)

          • hopeful_watcher says:

            I didn’t know this was a competition. Contend for the faith, not to get an upper hand in an argument. You desire the things of men.

            Jesus speaking to the first pope:
            Get behind me Satan, you are an offense to me.

          • John Boyle says:

            Oh but it is…. It’s about salvation and Satan using his tricks to WIN souls. What don’t you get? If I sound harsh so be it but what was proved here today is that Chris Putnam and Tom horne are distorting scripture to gain wealth no 1 and lead souls away from the one true faith. yeah I have a real problem with that…..

            And those who listen to them will too…..

            Funny is they do mix truth with lies to gain the advanmtage…. a trick of the demon.

          • liam says:

            mr boyle as a catholic what is your opinion of the present pope and also pope jp2 who kissed a koran(islam blasphemes the holy spirit) and both attended assis conference pope jphn paul 2 had cow dung put on his forehead by a kali priestess(kali is satan or the god of death).under Cannon law this is cause for immediate excommunication whether pope or not.the christain martyrs in roman times were killed because they would not worship the emperor(put a pinch of salt on his alter )Assis was pure apostacy i am a catholic and even i can see they are apostates from hell. they both covered up for the homosexual and pedophile priests giving the bishops secret documents which told them to threaten the victims with hell if they told anyone. jesus said it would be beter if they tied a rope around their knecks and drowned in the sea Matthew 18:6. i just wonder how you feel about that and do you consider Asissi apostacy from the catholic faith

  4. hopeful_watcher says:

    The reason why I compare some Catholic doctrines to new Agers is how you exalt the saints and give them divinity status with supernatural powers. New Agers would could these the ascended masters.

    • Cris Putnam says:

      hopeful_watcher you are correct. There’s no difference between New Agers that channel aliens and ascended masters and Catholic mystics who channel “mary” its the same phenomenon – I wrote a chapter in Petrus Romanus that made that case and it will be unpacked more in this book.

      • John Boyle says:

        EVERYBODY CHRIS PUTNAM HAS THE POWER TO LIMIT GOD!!!!!!

        Its true he wrote a book telling us how any and all marian apparitions or catholic mystics are demonic!!! HA HA HA HA Do you know how unbiblical and unreal you are? Your posture discounts all of antiquity and says God can not and will not and has not used his celestial court for anything since the time of Jesus… TELL ME WHERE EXACTLY DOES IT SAY GOD WILL NOT SPEAK TO US EVER AGAIN TILL THE SECOND COMING?

        • hopeful_watcher says:

          It doesnt, but that doesn’t mean He is through anything other than the holy spirit.

          The burden of proof is on the apparition.
          Galatians 1:8
          “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!”

          • John Boyle says:

            EXACTLY!!!! The burden of prof is on the apparition….. Dont you know how long and argious the discernment process is for an apparition to be deemed “worthy of belief?” (there not an article of faith remember just deemed not contrary to scripture….. A whole board of skeptics and theologins are seated and they go through every aspect etc..etc..etc… BUT ACCORDING TO YOU ALL APPARITIONS ARE DEMONIC!!! doesnt it make sense that mary is paving the return of her son? Why wouldnt that be? her messages are all positive and point us to her son…NOTHING MORE.

            My Lord why is this so difficult for you?

          • John Boyle says:

            one more thing;

            You wrote “It doesnt, but that doesn’t mean He is through anything other than the holy spirit.”

            BUT IT DOESNT SAY ANYWHERE THAT HE WILL ONLY SPEAK TO US THROUGH THE HOLY SPIRIT EITHER NOW DOES IT? Check mate….

        • liam says:

          tell me mr do you consider the appiritions at mejogorjie to be real or demonic. when they are obviously of the devil. the virgin there promotes islam and false reliogions like islam

          • john B says:

            This is how the unholy leaven spreads… It is also the ecumenical agenda of Papal Rome to be the Authoritative power Globally!…. So; what begins (apparitions) as only catholic spreads into other faiths

            The Assisi interfaith council led by John paul ii is all Rome’s push for power to restore the Blood thirsty Harlot in alliance with the Kings of the earth…

            JP ii had a devotion to Fatima & Lourds….. You catholics are being taken for a ride with all this Mary stuff.. That ride will ultimately lead into the Worship of the Image of the beast (ecumenical God)

            Imperial Rome is Catholic Rome.. The Whore lives… Her insatiable lust for the Blood of the saints will only be Quenched By the divine Fire of Holy judgment…

            blessings

            john b

          • john B says:

            HE IMAGE IN TIME SOON TO BE UPON US
            ANCIENT BABYLON. “Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold whose height was three score cubits, he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon” Dan3:1.

            “Then an herald cried aloud, to you it is commanded, O people, nation and languages… Ye fall down and worship the golden image… and whoso falleth not down to worship shall the same hour be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace Dan3:4-6.

            ECUMENICAL BABYLON. in the book of Revelations the angel tells John That “all the people, nations and Languages” that are in the Sea of Ecumenical Babylon will be forced to Worship the Image of the beast.

            ” And He exerciseth all the power of the First beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the First beast Rev13:12.

            And cause as many as would not worship the Image of the beast should be Killed” Rev13:15.

      • John Boyle says:

        CHRIS PUTNAM IT WOULD BE HELPFUL IF YOU FIRST KNEW AND UNDERSTOOD WHAT MEADATRIX OR CO REDEMTRIX MEANS BEFORE YOU GO OFF HALF COCKED WRITING LIES AND DISTORTIONS!!!

        ***SNIP PLAGIARISM ****

      • liam says:

        mr putnam at fatima mary allegedly appeared to the children.they didnt channel her in any of the same sense we see with occultists and were mere innocent children with no knowledge of such things as channeling.At Lourdes bernadete also was an ignorant uneducated person who was very humble and poor and lived a short life in pain and prayer.(she never had another vision until her death).steve quale and many others claim to have visions of jesus and of things to come. none of them attempted to contact jesus christ chanel as far as i kow it was omething the lord did to them. Steve as we know was still in his conversion process and was amazed it hapened to him. bernadete and these children were used in similar ways. your entitled to your opinions of course and no one iether catholic or protestant’s salvation counts on beliveing these appiritions are real. but I disagree the children were channeling demons.at fatima the two younger children knew they would die young and loved jesus and his mother and died very heroic deaths. The miracle at fatmia was a real occurance and (i know you think it was demonic) but the prophecies including the evil vatican council(which was to be dettered through the message which was supressed)have come true i guess we all have our opinions this site is excellent for debates and points of view and your work is as interesting to catholics and protestants alike.as i can see from the flurry of comments. to the catholics reading this i belive the vatican 2 sect at rome is not catholic, Catholics should discern between the shephards and the wolves in sheeps clothing the ravenous lying wicked wolves of the apostate modern vatican church in rome.THE END TIME APOSTACY BEGAN WITH THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL and its distaterous effect not just on the catholic church but also the protestant churches. as Rome fell so did christianitys influence in general . its easy to see that there is a connection between the second vatican council the end of the LATIN MASS the invalid present mass and the start of the 60s sexual revolution abortion laws and occultism through hollywood and the msn and the general degredation of modern society. t

    • william says:

      i dont think that thats quite correct. the ascended masters are similar to the jedi knights and budist philosophy. the saints are christians who died in the faith and who recognise the apsepects of the christian faith we all do, namely were all sinners and the lord jesus died for our sins and we need his redemtive power for our salvation through the holy spirit.
      etc. You can argue its not biblical but then again there were extra books in the bible and there are also many denominations which are not roman catholic who teach the same doctrines. you are right we are to be suspicious of ascended masters who claim to be more than just human. are you aware of the miracle of st josephs stair case
      there is an excellent utube video about the subject have a look and let me know what you think
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENjjspf2tN0

      nice music as well.
      praise jesus christ the lord and saviour.

  5. John Boyle says:

    I NOTICE I KEEP ANSWERING ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS BUT YOU DO NOT ANSWER MNINE….SO I WILL ASK AGAIN PROTESTORS;

    ***SNIP PLAGIARISM***

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      I am sorry. I stopped paying attention to you a long time ago when your most credible response was “you are pathetic.” If that is the spirit by which you follow, then you may have it all to yourself.

    • john B says:

      John; you say ( Then who is the teacher of the Scriptures? The Holy Spirit, acting through the Catholic Church.)

      So; with regards to the inquisition, when for over five hundred years the Catholic church reigned by the sword (persecuting power) and butchered and sadistically tortured millions who professed faith in Jesus over the infallible dictates of the pope.
      The inspired word of scripture record the words of Jesus ” all who take up the sword, shall perish by it”

      I suppose it was the Holy Spirit’s ok to use the sword of persecution to slaughter the enemies of the Church..
      The odd thing is that it was Apostle Peter, to which Jesus spoke and said “put your sword back into its place” Mat26:52

      It is amazing that the catholic church Boasts of their many martyrs who died by the sword (persecuting power of Rome) and yet see nothing wrong when She uses the sword in likewise manner! ((Bloody hypocrites)).

      I use the word Bloody in the real sense of the word to indicate that the Roman catholic Whorish religious Spirit of antichrist has the blood of righteous men and women upon their clerical hands, and that this persecutor of the saints of the Most High is no different to that of the pharisee’s who persecuted the Apostles of Jesus.

      Oh; how she tries desperately to hide these Bloody memoirs form the eyes of men but The Blood of the righteous will always cry out from the ground and ‘Behold the day cometh, when Babylon the Great will be remembered of God and He shall burn Her with Fire Rev18:8

      Blessings

      john B

      • John Boyle says:

        I AM STILL WAITING FOR YOU TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS BUT YOU KEEP AVOIDING THEM….WHY? BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS WILL SHOW WHAT A SHAM AND LIE YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING!!!

    • hopeful_watcher says:

      The bible is so important to Catholics, that they saw fit to change it. Heck they even changed the commandments. Your obedience to tower of babel has blinded you to truth.

  6. david says:

    This is an interesting phenomenon. Here’s another Catholic, John Boyle, who has all but taken over this discussion. I personally found it frustrating to wade through his tirades to get to the substance of the discussion from other posters. I’ve noticed that lately, (thanks to the web?) Catholics, who were all but asleep for the last who knows how many decades, and all but ignored the Bible, have come out of the woodwork with very militant assertions of their church’s primacy and denunciations of those who don’t recognize Rome’s authority. Where were you guys when I was looking for truth back in the ’70’s? I certainly didn’t hear it from you. I was raised a Catholic and never heard the Gospel until I read some books by an evangelical author in 1976. After I was saved I returned to the Catholic church for a brief while until I realized it was hopeless. Then I started looking for a church that preached the Bible. I won’t bore you with the details of my pilgrimage, but I’ve gone too far now to ever come under the bondage of Rome again. But I do find it interesting that so many strident, vocal Catholics have all of a sudden come out of the closet and asserted themselves these days. Could it be yet another sign of the times?

    • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

      You just weren’t listening……. But now you will listen to any fool who says what your itching ears want’s to hear. And that’s OUR fault?

      “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.” Timothy 4:3.4

      Who do you think that passage was written for?

    • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

      ANTI CATHOLICS SAY THEY ONLY NEED A BIBLE, NO CHURCH.
      (That’s not what the bible teaches)

      Sola scriptura is Latin for “scripture alone” and is a “doctrine” of many Protestant faith communities.

      ***SNIP John Boyle’s Plagiarism ****

    • liam says:

      we catholic have always read the bible. We just dont learn chapter and verse like protestants, you are portraying a myth. the chatholic church descided which books would stay in and be kept out . even luther acknowledge this debt to the catholic church. As for private revelations and such the people who follow luther who made it up as he went along the protestan lack of understanding of scripture is astounding. its one thing to know what is written in th ebible another to actually understand it

      • Cris Putnam says:

        Liam,
        Actually the Catholic church as exists today (Rome was merely a local authority until AD 606) did not decide the cannon of scripture that is a myth. The two synods of Hippo (393 AD) and Carthage, (397 AD) were African councils not initiatives of Rome. Since the synod Carthage in 397 AD stated, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon”, does this not prove that Rome had no direct input or initiative in determining the canon?

        At the Synod of Hippo (393), and again at the Synod of 397 at Carthage, a list of the books of Holy Scripture was drawn up. It is the Catholic canon (i.e. including the books classed by Protestants as “Apocrypha”). The latter synod, at the end of the enumeration, added, “But let Church beyond sea (Rome) be consulted about confirming this canon”.
        Source Catholic Encyclopedia http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01199a.htm

  7. hopeful_watcher says:

    Boyle (lol, when I typed that in my auto correct came up with Hitler. I am not even kidding)

    It doesn’t matter how much we discuss and questions we answer, you will never see any reason because you see the world through rosary colored glasses. It is like trying to reason with a three year old who has missed his nap. But no matter, because even though you could never be swayed, your responses have revealed your true nature.

    I am guessing you are one of the knights of “Columbus” types (aka Columbia, liberte, Venus, herm-aphrodite, lucifer in drag).

    This is my last comment to you. I am taking the advice of FOC. I will no longer throw pearls your way so that you trample them under hooves.

    • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

      ALL PROTESTANTS SAY PRAYING TO MARY IS NOT BIBLICAL

      Then all Protestants must read comic books for Bibles…..

      HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE THE LORD IS WITH YOU
      Luke 1:28 “And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

      ***SNIP*** plagiarized material

      So next time someone asks you why you pray to Mary ask them why dont they pray to Mary?


      **This is not an example of prayer to Mary rather a conversation with her as she was alive and standing there.

      • hopeful_watcher says:

        Mary is blessed. No one says she isn’t. But Satan takes a small truth and perverts it to his purpose. Acknowledging grace gets perverted to exhaltation. Adoration gets perverted to worship.

        Was not Jesus crucified using the same methods. The phariseas knew the law and then tried to hang Jesus with it. They perverted for their own evil desires.

      • Cris Putnam says:

        Luke 1:28 “And coming to her, he said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”

        John, is Mary alive in Luke chapter 1? Yes, she’s alive and while she’s a very special woman – to call this in Luke 1 a prayer is just silly, she was right in front of them and they were talking to her face to face – that’s not prayer. This a completely different context than trying to contact a deceased human being which the Bible calls necromancy and mediumship. Prayer is directed only to God because prayer IS worship. Prayer to Mary is sorcerous and idolatrous.

  8. t han says:

    john catholic sounds like a pharssee. The pope looks like a pharasee.
    What did Jesus say about pharasee’s

  9. Shonda P. says:

    Wow…I hardly ever comment on websites, but when I see comments from people claiming to belong to Christ but talk to, mock, or whatever you wanna call what’s going on in the comments, just makes me HAVE to ask ‘WHERE IS YOUR CHRIST-LIKE CHARACTER? And for the record, ALL of Christ’s children will be gathered from the 4 winds, from all over, & if ANYBODY thinks there is only one true religion & your in it, you are already deceived. Our religion should be THE BIBLE & the Bible alone. Do you not realize that before Jesus comes there will be 2 types of people? The ones doing the persecuting & the ones being persecuted? And what does out Savior tell us about this? Oh yeah, he says to prepare & TAKE IT! He says we should ALL lay down our lives for Him. So ask yourself this question, are you going to be the one who persecuted others or are you gonna get prepared in your spirit for persecution? Cause the more I read the more I see so called CHRIST’S CHILDREN, persecuting each other. How sad!!!!!
    As for the article, good job Chris. I enjoy reading your work!

    • John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

      WHERE IS MY CHRIST LIKE CHARACHTER???? Yet you spit on my church, laugh at the mother of Christ and sit high atop your perch thinking you hold the answers. I dont like you or you or you because you attack the “one true faith” and clearly NOT A ONE OF YOU CAN ANSWER BASIC QUESTIONS but can only attack…..PATHETIC EACH AND EVERY ONE OF YOU!!!! Chris Putnam and Tom Horne are on a B line to hell!!! And they are taking you with them….. FOOLS!!! Our Lady of the Rosary PRAY FOR THEM!!!

  10. t han says:

    broad is the path that leads to destuction
    narrow is the path that leads to salvation
    is the catholic church the narrow path ?
    the numbers do not add up

  11. Shonda P. says:

    Last I checked ‘John Boyle’, I never spit on your precious church, nor mary. i clearly stated how bad your attitude is, and the lack of a Christ-Like character. You are here to argue. Nobody ever gets anywhere arguing. You sound like my 3 teenagers trying to make a point, with an argumentative spirit, name calling, and others things I won’t mention. Either you are a young adult who doesn’t know any better, or you are older and DO! Christians shouldn’t have to tell other Christians how to behave! That’s what the Word is for. You sir, should question your ability on how to talk to others with the love Christ has shown us. It doesn’t matter what religion any of us are when it comes to displaying our Christ-like character. Every single one of our Bibles tells us this. And sir, it is attitudes like the one you are carrying on this forum that make the rest of us God fearing people cringe. How do you expect to lead anyone to Christ, or for this discussion, to make people listen to you when you talk like that? Yes, you sound like you know your church history this isn’t a debate on your knowledge sir, this statement is to tell you that NO ONE wants to listen to another with an argumentive, mocking spirit and I don’t care WHO you are, WHERE you come from or WHAT religion you are. You think people are attacking your religion? So that gives you the right to attack them personally? If this is how you think you can win souls sir, and YES THAT IS OUR COMMISION, then you DO NOT have the love if Christ I your heart. We are not only commanded to love our enemies, but this is how we know we have the love if Christ, we will love all of our brethren (ie, our brothers and sisters in Christ!) I’m not arguing w/ you over your religion, there is no sense in that, I’m merely saying your so called ‘Christ-like’ character on this forum has been anything but, and I’m not the only one who believes so. You can have all he knowledge you think you need but it avails nothing if your attitude isn’t right. Christ tells us how to identify His people, you sir have had no patience, you sir have given no joy, you sir, haven’t been long suffering trying to teach others here what ever point you’re trying to make. You sir have been nothing but hateful to others here. Like I said it that type of argumentive spirit, that make the rest if us ashamed of people talking like you. It is a SHAME sir, that you don’t even realize the words that are coming out your mouth! If anything the rest of us reading this should be praying wholeheartedly straight to our intercessor, not a priest because Jesus IS OUR HIGH PREST NOT MAN, to help this man.

  12. david says:

    I think the major area of disagreement between JB and the “Protestants” here is in the definition of the word “church”. John, as far as I can tell, means the organization headquartered in Rome. Evangelicals mainly mean the worldwide ranks of the regenerate who have been placed in the Body. They can also mean a local congregation of such believers, or even a building, although usually they will clarify the last by saying “church building”. They rarely use it to refer to organizations, e.g., Missouri Synod Lutherans, Episcopalians, Free Methodists, etc. So when JB quotes a scripture such as the statement that the church is “the pillar and ground of truth”, we can say Amen to that, based upon our definition of the word “church”. Any discussion of the church’s role and powers without a clear definition of the word is bound to end in confusion and disagreement. BTW, only the regenerate are the church, the ekklesia, the “called out” ones. It doesn’t matter how long a person has been warming a pew, if he’s not born again, if he hasn’t been quickened by the Holy Spirit, he’s not a member of the church. He’s not a “living stone” which Peter speaks of, which is part of the edifice Christ is building. He’s not a member of the Body. It doesn’t matter if he’s a member of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, or even the Pope himself. Without regeneration, he’s not part of the church. That’s non-negotiable. If JB is willing to abide by this definition of “church”, we can have a discussion. If not, we’re arguing in circles.

  13. t han says:

    religion versus christianity
    religion is, man doing a set of WORK’S to reach god
    christianity is, god reaching out to man and providing the blood sacrifice
    thus – by grace are you saved and not by work’s lest any man should boast
    god has done all the work, all we are requiered to to do is to love him then right living followes
    and so it is called the catholic religion which implies work’s and boasting [john]
    faith first then right living is the natural outcome
    [faith without work’s is dead]
    hate to be skooled by somebody that can not even spell the word [schooled]
    Terry

  14. BillybonesIII says:

    I weep for the misguided comments here. Anyone who hangs their hat on a religion is, sad to say, in the wrong church.
    Those who believe God came to earth and took the body of the man we call Jesus, I believe will see Jesus one day. Those who choose to kiss the ring of a man appointed to lead an organization and deny the christ will have a problem. Pomp and politics in the vatican prior to the appointment of a new pope is all we need to see that they are just another power group up to and including the cardinals and the CEO aka the pope.

    Scripture tells me that all who believe in and on the Lord Jesus, are saints.
    Scripture tells me to call no man ‘father’.
    Scripture tells me that Mary the mother of Jesus the man, will be honored in the ages to come. Other than that Mary was born with the sin of Adam just as we all are. Yesm Mary was a virgin, as were many young women at that time, but Mary found favor with God. Period. Mary is not, nor has she ever been, the mother of God. God is eternal. Mary is the mother of the Lord Jesus only.

    Oh, and by the way, to the person claiming to be a catholic, until the Gutenberg press started printing Bibles, very few catholic adherents ever saw the scriptures until Martin Luther, while reading Paul’s letter to the Romans, realized how much the “catholics” were being misled by all the Latin gobble-de gook coming from the priesthood.

    I believe God used Luther as a church wak-up, even though he was anti-Semitic in his own belief. He enjoyed few blessings in later life. (He did write a beautiful hymn though).

    I think satan must be enjoying all this name calling and argument. Come on everyone. Jesus left us with a final commandment. He gave it to the desciples before He gave His life on the cross for us. Look it up!

    Maranatha

    ps, thanks Chris, fine job.

  15. Godswill says:

    Dear Liam,

    Somewhere in the archive on 1/14 you wrote of John Paul II accepting dung on his forehead. Your information is reprehensible, and you are spreading falsehood of one of the holiest of men who walked this earth next to Jesus Christ. Goodness. No wonder there is division in the Body of Christ whether Catholic or Protestant. The Queen of Heaven, Mary Most Holy who comes to All her children to prepare everyone to be a praying people, you have rambled about with no knowledge whatsoever, regarding one of her greatest visitations in Medjugorje in Salvation history. This is no one’s “agenda,” certainly not the Church’s, but Heaven’s agenda, to prepare the people to return to God. Make a trip there, and you will know that what you speak dishonors her and will bring you humbly to your knees. It will be the same you would feel in falling before Our Lord Jesus Christ repenting of these false disseminations.

    Be a little more humble, and you will also discover your Heavenly Mother is the Mother of Jesus who also loves you with so much tender Love, a Love you have probably never known. I refer here to my earlier posting from yesterday. It appears no one can get through to you no matter what foundational thought is placed before you. There, however, no words need be spoken. You will simply know in your heart. She comes to prepare the Hearts, minds and souls of the Faithful for the return of the Savior of the world, Our Lord Jesus Christ. You will be extending your hand to John and see him as your brother. God unites. Men divide. The fighting has to stop, and it begins with each individual. We are speaking about the Eternal Almighty God who is bigger, greater, than man’s minute perception. Silence is good. Prayer and silence holding firm resolve to listen intently to the Voice of the Holy Spirit. Catholics do not worship Saints or statues but the one they point to always … Jesus Christ, just as Our Lady always points to her Son and leads all the lost sheep in the pastures to Him. She is the gentle shepherdess … no heirarchical agenda. This is Heaven’s Visitation.

    I echo John: Mary, as the New Eve, gave the world the instrument of redemption–the body of Christ, just as Eve gave the world the instrument of the Fall–disobedience in taking the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (the disordered human will in act). In this sense, Mary is co-redemptrix, due to her participation in the Redemption. Mary is also called co-redemptrix in the sense that she offered her Son Jesus, with her maternal rights, in union with her own sufferings in witnessing and participating in the Passion of Jesus, for the salvation of humanity. By this act, Mary herself merited the grace of redemption for all mankind. This was foreshadowed by Simeon, who said to Mary: “a sword will pierce your own heart, too” (Luke 2:35). We must not as brothers and sisters of Christ pierce her Heart further.
    Blessings.

  16. hopeful_watcher says:

    All I hear from these debates is people saying that Jesus will consider my praise and worship insufficient and unworthy, because I did not follow the pre-subscribed manner that has been defined by man.

    Utter none-sense. You can take your rules and have your popes. I choose to have a direct relationship with Jesus that no excommunication will ever take from me.

  17. t han says:
    • Cris Putnam says:

      Wow t han that’s horrible, it reminds of a book I read by William H Kennedy called Lucifer’s Lodge about Satanic Ritual Abuse within the RCC.

  18. BillybonesIII says:

    This casual reader is a bit confused by all the back and forth rhetoric by this very obviouly mixed up catholic person. I have friends who hold to the catholic faith(?). I have to wonder how anybody catholic or otherwise, can show where, in scripture, we are to call on any saint to intercede on (our) the pray-er’s behalf. Seems to me all who believe in the Lord Jesus’ death and resurrection are to be called saints. We all go th the One who intercedes to the Father for us..
    Mr Boyle seems to be a very angry and argumenative person. And, you know Mr boyle, the last catholic edifice I saw was loaded with “saints” or IDOLS. Not much different from the temples of Venus or Diana and the like.

    Chris and Tom have really hit a nerve here. It’s high time Catholics take a serious look at what and whom they believe.

    Popes and priests et al must be a stench in the nose of the Almighty. None of these positions of authority are Biblical. Indugences handed out by priests, buying forgiveness for sins that were forgiven on the cross of Calvary! The whole system of cathedrals, the opulence, the white smoke coming out of a chimney – on and on it goes! Give – me – a – break.!! Now the whole world is about to stand on it’s head because a pope resigns?

    Yet, Jesus died for these people too.

    You too Mr Boyle.

  19. John Boyle says:

    WHATS THAT? CANT HEAR YOU ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS… I ANSWERED ALL YOURS, WHY CANT YOU ANSWER MINE? TYPICAL….

  20. hopeful_watcher says:

    I don’t need to answers your pathetic questions because they are based off of falsities and therefore your questions do not seek the truth. You naively believe the Catholic church speaks for biblical truth and then you want to ask a question that endorses that truth. You are blind and lost. Come out of her my people. I assumed you were bright enough to know when a counterpoint against the catholic church is aimed at you but you dance around it. Feel free to believe you won this battle of wits, but what have you really won when your salvation is in the balance. I suggest you spend more time in prayer and less seeking the interests of men.

  21. FOC says:

    Dear John Boyle,

    The Lord Jesus Christ is grieved by the way in which you have responded to his followers in this thread. You have mocked them and acted the pharisee. If you have actually taken the time to read Petrus Romanus you would recognize two things, first it is a scholarly work, second there are more legitimate references than any book I have ever read. Tom Horn and Chris in my opinion have started the process of waking up christians to the widespread deception and atrocities of the catholic church. John you are obviously passionate about what you believe or you would not have spent so much time writing all of this. The bible says in proverbs that “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death” . I am not an educated man but I know the word of God does not align with a lot of what the catholic church teaches it’s people. The Lord loves all people and does not want them to be deceived, If you are a true believer in Jesus Christ I challenge you to get somewhere quiet and ask him to reveal to you whether or not you have been deceived, if you are sincere he will convict your heart . I did not write this to argue and I will not respond or debate with you, unless you have honest questions about Jesus.

  22. John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

    I HAVE NEVER HEARD ANYTHING SO PATHETIC, FEEBLE AND WUSSAFIED AS YOUR SURRENDER….. Go, go Protestor and continue to surround yourself with liars and fools who are only leading you to damnation. because when you stand before Jesus you can not now nor ever again say you were not exposed to the truth and rejected it.
    2 Timothy 4:3 “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.”
    Clearly they are not speaking about the catholic faith as we have been around since 33 ad…. when was your cult put together?

  23. john B says:

    John; for your information the original Greek texts were in use long before the catholic church compiled the Latin vulgate Bible of Jerome

    The Italic Church in the Northern Italy (157 A.D) used the Textus Receptus
    The Gallic Church of Southern France (177 A.D.) used the Textus Receptus
    The Celtic Church used the Textus Receptus
    The Waldensians used the Textus Receptus
    The Gothic Version of the 4th or 5th century used the Textus Receptus
    The Greek Orthodox Church used the Textus Receptus.
    Greek manuscript evidences point to a Byzantine/Textus Receptus majority.

    You completely ignore the fact that the Easrern church have their own bible..

    blessings

    john B

  24. hopeful_watcher says:

    Dude you are evil. Of course you have been around since 33 AD. You are nothing but a continuation of the phariseas. If Jesus were here and didn’t abide by your precious Eucharist, you would hang Him on a cross.

  25. john B says:

    Not all christians in the west were Roman catholic until such time when Constantine imposed it upon the Empire.

    Our salvation is not in any human institution, for such existed not within the churches established By Apostle Paul.

    Apostle John writes from the Lord in the Revelation and addresses seven literal independent churches “to the seven churches that are in Asia” Rev1:4 He does not write to the church in Asia.

    The simplicity of the faith is a pure devotion to Christ Jesus.. The Apostle gives warning about being deceived from such. 2Cor11:3 Something that the popes are guilty of with their myriads of saintly devotions…
    Oh Babylon the Great is the inventor of all manner of doctrines (dogmas) The Prideful complicator of humble simplicity indeed she is a “den of iniquity a dwelling place of demons”,……… Rev18:2

    You accuse people of selling literature to become rich and in your blindness cannot see the wealth with which the Whore is adorned. Rev18:16 “remove the speck form thine own eye that thou mayest see clearly.

    Blessings

    john B

  26. John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

    YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNN I NOTICE NONE OF YOU EVEN TRY AND ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!! And John B please read and LEARN!!!
    Advocates of the King James only version of the Bible are wholly anti-Catholic bigots, which is, as you will now see rather ironic. You see, the King James version was translated from Greek texts which use the Latin Vulgate version as a corrective. The Latin Vulgate was held in Roman Catholic hands for centuries. It is the Catholic version of the scriptures these KJV advocates defend! Yet these same anti-Catholics prefer the King James version to any modern version where Protestant scholars have actually gone back and found the most ancient texts that had none of the later Latin, Roman Catholic additions [not that there were many]. The point is, would you rather have a text held and passed down through monkish hands, dominated by the Roman hierarchy? Or would you rather have the most ancient Greek texts, untouched by Roman hands?

  27. FOC says:

    John B and Hopeful watcher,

    Brothers , “whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake the dust of your feet.” matt 10:14 red letters

  28. John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

    Is that the “scholarly work” which uses one of their other books as a source reference? yeah I think the term ‘scholarly” should be replaced with sophmoorishly….

    P.S. I noticed like all of you other Protestors you still wont answer my questions just keep attacking me…. WOW does it show how weak and fruitless your interpertation of scripture is? I kow it must be hard realizing what you have come to accept as true and real has been nothing more then distortions and lies…. It must hurt.

  29. John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

    “The “lord Jesus Christ is…..” you are speaking for the Lord now? And you claim our saints are delusional??? ha ha ha I think NOT!! In fact Jesus is ashamed and hurt at how you attack his CHURCH!!!! “And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven” Matthew 12:31

  30. john B says:

    For you John; I would like to know what emotions are stirred within if you decide to watch the video
    http://www.myspace.com/video/the-response-crew-hisshadyness-caoimhin/berean-beacon-catholic-inquisition-torture-2007/101378621

    Blessings

    john b

  31. John "Saved Catholic" Boyle says:

    Ill watch it as soon as you answer my questions….. (Ive only asked ten times, guess you cant hu?)

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